In the absence of an unlikely domestic prosecution, what are the possibilities for the exercise of universal jurisdiction, as in the case filed by Judge Garzon against Augusto Pinochet?

George Holoch should be prosecuted for treason if indeed he is an American.

Oh boy, this should be good!

Dear Tom Ashbrook,

Today’s discussion is a nice exercise for people to vent their rage at how Bush and company have trashed America’s constitution, but there is little evidence to suggest that ANYONE will be held accountable.

IN FACT, ACCOUNTABILITY SEEMS TO BE AN ARCHAIC TERM IN TODAY’S LEXICON! No one admits guilt anymore. Bush and Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, Gonzales have all done so much harm but they dance around it and no one calls them to task on anything. Where is the rage of America’s people and press?

The same lack of consequences allows congress to grandstand publicly as, all the while, they take bribes called compaign contributions and sell out the interests of the people who voted for them.

Then there is the stinking financial cesspool where the bankers and big executives get to take home their billions while America’s grandchildren will still be paying for this debacle after we are all dead.

BOTTOM LINE, IF AMERICA IS TO EVER RECOVER FROM THE MESS THAT BUSH AND COMPANY HAVE BROUGHT DOWN ON US WE MUST RESTORE ACCOUNTABILITY AT EVERY LEVEL!!
PEOPLE AT THE TOP HAVE TO ANSWER FOR THEIR ACTIONS AND PAY FOR WHAT THEY HAVE DONE JUST LIKE EVERY PETTY DRUG DEALER AND SMALL TIME HOODLUM DOES. ONLY WHEN WE HAVE ACCOUNTABILITY AND EQUAL JUSTICE FOR ALL WILL THIS COUNTRY START TOWARD THE FAITH IN AMERICA THAT WILL LEAD US TO REAL RECOVERY AND RENEWAL. LC

At a minimum, a Special Prosecutor should be appointed and a Congressional investigation begun to ascertain whether or not the President, the Vice President, the Attorney General, the Secretary of State and other high government officials should be charged with high crimes and misdeamors. I believe this must be initiated before the current President is able to absolve anyone in his administration from being investigated and charged as appropriate.

in my mind, one of the worst aspects (and rarely discussed in depth) of the Iraq war is that prior to the war- upwards of 80% of the US population-though Iraq and Saddam were actively involved in the 9/11 attacks.

I believe it was the historian Chalmers Johnson that stated this would have been remarkable in a facist state- let alone a democracy.

Also, those who stood up to the administration and lost jobs should be rewarded and recognized for their defense of democracy.

As sad as it is I don’t think this will happen.
The new Obama administration will have a lot on it’s plate. Prosecuting Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Gonzales as well as the legal advisers who drafted these mandates, will only cause more problems then it will solve.

I would love to see them prosecuted for all the horrible things they have done in the last 8 years, but it will not happen.

This should be dealt with objectively and the letter of the law and constitution followed. Wavering will lead us into an “Animal Farm” situation which I feel that we are already in. Remember that Al Gore stepped back in 2000 letting Bush take the presidency as he felt it was the right thing to do for the country. Maybe if he hadn’t been so noble and contested the supreme court’s decision, the country would not be in the mess it’s in. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure and we’ve got some back-pedalling to do!

Bush put his hand on the Bible and Took an oath of office. He broke that oath. He needs to pay the price as anyone else would. The Crimes are evident.

I don’t understand what is so difficult to understand? Don’t all laws apply to all people? If you commited a crime whoever you are you should be prosecuted. Or has the US started to prosecute only the poor and weak, and leave the strong and “powerful” free? Isn’t that basically just the law of the jungle? If you don’t prosecute blood-soaked Bush you will be supporting his injustices against millions of people in the US and around the world.

Puhhleeese, the same people arguing that this would “tear the country apart” had no problem impeaching a president for ‘lying under oath’ (actually for cheating on his wife).
The current administration should be held accountable for what they did,allowed to be done and encouraged to be done, PERIOD!

Our elected officials have admitted plainly to criminal felonies. This is not a question of policy. These are simple crimes and need to be treated as such if our legal system means anything at all. These apologists for tortures are reprehensible and have blood on their hands like the rest of them.

One thing that hasn’t been discussed is the fact that both Nancy Pelosi and Harry Reid signed off on this stuff so will no doubt be folded in to a potential prosecution.

Pelosi took impeachment off the table and few supported Kucinich and Feingold when they attempted impeachment and censure.

Given that congress just allowed an automatic pay raise to take place, I’d say put the lot of them in jail.

This is so important. Bush’s spying on US citizens ( usually peace protesters) sets a dangerous precedent. he should be prosecuted.

Also, refusing to torture set us above the rabble now we have no claim to a higher ground.

How about gathering the evidence now, but not prosecuting until the economic situation has eased?

I don’t think there is ANYTHING more important than establishing legal accountability for the crimes that have taken place in the past eight years of the Cheney/Bush administration. Including the global Depression of 2009-2015.

Divide the country? Give me strength. The country is asleep. This might wake it up. Which would be a very good thing.

And that means starting with 9/11/2001, the collapse of WTC #7, #2 and #1 (three steel-framed skyscrapers),

Waterboarding is the least of it, folks.

About a dozen or more of our prisoners of war (if we’re in a war, and we have prisoners, they’re prisoners of war — pretty simple) died at the hands of the US.

That’s called murder or homicide. So far as I know, there’s no statute of limitations on murder (it’s also a violation of the US War Crimes Law (18 USC §2441 or so). If death results, the punishment can include execution/capital punishment.)

However, this discussion is moot, unless Congress passes a law requiring specificity in presidential pardons (i.e., that a “pre-emptive presidential pardon” must specify with particularity the crime alleged to have been pardoned–no vague “any crimes they may have committed”.

Bush will issue blanket pardons, and that’ll be it.

In the 1960s I first saw a poster with the message “If you want peace, work for justice.” It is a perfect truth that never will change. When we blink, we condemn ourselves to future consequences.

These self – congratulatory exposes I find to be so amusing. When people were complaining that the Bush administration was engaged in war crimes nobody cared to address the charges. Now that they are for all we can tell now “untouchable” we feign indignation.

If the Bush administration is to be held accountable (as they should) then the congressional intelligence committee members should be held accountable too. I am talking about the Feinstein, Rockefeller, Bond, Warner Chambliss, Hatch, and all of the others that kept so many of these matters top secret. Then when they came to the public eye everyone wants to run for cover.

The reason the Bush hands can’t be slapped for making this brew of deceit and torture is because there are so many other dirty hands that stirred the torture pot. Everyone needs to be held accountable not just the executive branch.

The ONLY way to heal this country, as well as to restore our standing as the greatest nation in the history of the world, is to hold all criminals accountable for all crimes, regardless of their wealth, position, and birth. That means including the president, and especially presidents like Bush. OF COURSE we should prosecute Bush, Cheney, and perhaps Rumsfeld. Both conscience and common sense point to that.

In response to the listener’s comment regarding family members on the front lines and prosecution being a witch hunt… If you do have family members serving on the front lines, how would you feel if such practices were executed on them? Would you not want to perpetrators brought to justice?

I’d like to see criminal prosecution because I think it’s more than likely that both the president and vice president are prosecutable. But that’s an assumption. As with all criminal prosecutions it would have to begin with a thorough investigation. That’s what we need here; that’s what we need to be discussing: how to set up an investigation.

What is the most practical solution? The best suggestions, so far, have revolved around the creation of an independent commission appointed by the president or the revival of the independent prosecutor. Depending on what an investigation uncovers (and we’d have to get into the sad truth that much evidence will have been destroyed), we either do or don’t move into criminal prosecution.

Finally, we also know (or most of us do) that any investigation is going to uncover a good deal more than we may have bargained for, and not just the complicity of members of Congress. And, of course, it would take a long, long time — winding up after passions have cooled. And that would be frustrating for many who want the law to do its job now.

Government corruption is the biggest problem that faces the human race and it begins with the feeling of invulnerability in our leaders. Prosecute!

I am relieved to at last be hearing this conversation on your show. I believe that the Bush administration in conjunction with the media have made a mockery of our constitution and the laws of the land. The ultimate arrogance has been the contentions of being above the law.

First and foremost of the investigations should be 911 truth. Many professionals, engineers, physicists, pilots,lawyers among them, have stuck their necks out to dispute the official conspiracy theory. At the least it seems that it was allowed to happen. I and millions of others suspect it was a red flag even to galvanize support for the military build up, the war on terrorism and the dubious Patriot act.

The argument is that to prosecute the Bush Administration for torture and other crimes would “tear the country apart.”

What about the fact that Bush and Cheney have very unfavorable opinion ratings even among Republicans. Moreover, U.S. public opinion is overwhelmingly against torture?

How can this tear the country apart? Democracy is based on accountability.

To say that the public can’t somehow psychologically or emotionally handle the specter of U.S. former officials on trial for this is to demean American citizens — to make us out as fragile sheep.

U.S. Public Rejects Nearly All Forms of Torture or Coercion Even in Face of Possible Terrorist Attack
http://www.worldpublicopinion.org

U.S. Public Found to Reject Detainee Torture and Coercion
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0723-03.htm

A corollary of Too Big to Fail:

Too Highly Placed to be Prosecuted.

All your guests have missed the point, and that is deterrence. This cannot happen again, and only a prosecution will do that, dissuade other future officials from doing the same thing years from now. Create a commission to investigate, bipartisan, and refer to a special prosecutor, not the AG.

A truth commission first.
Take deep breath, breathe deep.
Use this energy for long term change, to create accountability DURING the administration.
Change the constitution.
We need TRANSPARENCY, and the Constitution is the only tool that can bear down hard enough to maintain Executive accountability.
Please see my blog.

Tom,

Our country was hurt by the Nixon administration’s lack of moral accountability and the healing process was cut short by a pardon. In my opinion this left the door open for others to act without regard for consequences. The Bush administration’s lack of accountability on both moral and legal issues must have some sort of punctuation to mark its end. We need to find a way to make it clear to future administrators, custodians of our trust and the rest of the world where we the people stand on these issues.

BTW: My uncle was a prison guard during WWII and I can tell you for sure he would be sick were he alive today regarding how prisoners are treated.

John

Questions
Can WE as a Nation prosecute for crimes done in our own Name?
If by chance WE as a Nation do prosecute ourselves for War Crimes
lets ask Israel to distribute the Reparations.

To all those who hide behind the patriot defense I am reminded of Samuel Johnson, who by coincidence was the topic of yesterdays show. Mr. Johnson had a lot to say on the subject…

The most popular quote is: “Patriotism is the last refuge of a scoundrel.”

I like this one:

“Let us take a patriot, where we can meet him; and, that we may not flatter ourselves by false appearances, distinguish those marks which are certain, from those which may deceive; for a man may have the external appearance of a patriot, without the constituent qualities; as false coins have often lustre, though they want weight.”

This country should not hold policy above morality. Clinton faced impeachment for something that affected at most 3 people in a serious way, yet committed one small mistake. The Bush administration found loopholes and coverups to make all of these homicidal, immoral actions “okay” according to the law. It’s a shame that the same people who agree with Clinton’s impeachment argue that the Bush administration should walk away scott free. And if that happens, then it just proves that America’s country is a joke at which the rest of the world is guffawing.

Furthermore, it’s even more tragic that this is the type of “democracy” that the Bush administration wants to spread to Iraq – a form of terrorism that is based on loopholes. Murder is murder, no matter how you swing it.

There won’t be any prosecutions because
1) there was no intent to commit a crime and
2) the political fallout would affect all in Washington.

Elections are the best way to clean house. We all eagerly anticipate the new age of enlightenment that arrives in less than two weeks. At least there should be less whining for a brief period.

Joseph it must so easy to live in your world, everything is black and white and without any nuance. Also blaming Jews is not going to fly, I can read the subtext to your comment on Israel.

Do some reading, start with the Constitution.

http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html

This trial needs to go forward. Impeachment and the fact-finding that would go with it make a lot of sense (see Bill Moyers Journal, July 13, 2007). Unfortunately, that will not happen. Congress has its plate full. If impleachment were seriously pursued, political grandstanding would likely obscure the process and lead to stalemate.
A legal trial stands as the best option. There needs to be a definitive finding that will guide our future administrations and help to form part of the public consciousness to guide future electorates. The ideals of our nation’s founders have been violated. We are a better nation than we have been. A public finding that this was illegal and unconstitutional would send an enormously beneficial message to the people of this country and the rest of the world.

If it is determined that the United States’ recent forays into creative interrogation rise to the level of prosecutable crimes I am all for taking those responsible to court. However, I think we should schedule the trials in the chronological order in which the crimes were committed. As such, Bill Clinton’s trial will precede Mr. Bush’s. Unless I am mistaken (and I am not) Mr. Clinton signed DDB 39 on June 21 1995. This was the Presidential Decision Directive that authorized extraordinary rendition. And while it would be nice to think that Mr. Clinton was trying to find a way to help people get access to good quality, reasonably priced hash, the more reasonable conclusion from seeing people flown to places like Turkey, or Pakistan bound, gagged and with a black sack over their head is that they were sent their to be tortured.

I could really care less whether or not this issue is pursued. Whether or not it goes to court its impact will be felt in America’s future. For good or for ill is yet to be determined. But if we do decide to do this can we please not be hypocrites about it and hammer everyone involved and not just the people on, what we consider to be, the wrong side of the ideological aisle.

What seems to be missing from the discussion is the role of the Judicial Branch of government in all this? There is a Separation of Powers issue here. The Legislative and Executive branches shouldn’t be discussing who should be prosecuted. If there is a question as to whether an individual(s)has broken a law that issue should be tried in the judicial system. We don’t want government officials or politicians deciding who can or can’t or should or shouldn’t be tried.

Ask ourselves what we would be talking about if the shoe were on the other foot and it was Americans that were tortured and degraded. We sure wouldn’t be dismissing those responsible as doing their “patriotic” duty and “defending” their country.

I enjoyed the broadcast, but was curious about a point raised by one of your callers about a Bush insider named Michael Connell who was the central witness in a criminal investigation against the Bush administration. Why haven’t we heard more about Mr. Connell’s accidental death on your program or other mainstream media?

By the way, when we look back at the 8 years of illegality of the Cheney/Bush administration, it all started with 9/11/2001.

And the so-called “attacks” of 9/11/2001 have not been thoroughly investigated. Period.

At the very, very least, the evidence of the destruction of the three World Trade Center buildings #7, #2 & #1 proves pretty conclusively to me that it was explosives that brought the three buildings down.

We need to go right back to that point, 9/11/2001, and it has not been proven that “19 hijackers” “attacked” us. Many of the so-called “hijackers” have shown up alive and well all over the world.

You have to ask, Wassup widat?

And for the 3,000 or so deaths that occurred, those are murders, folks, and there’s no statute of limitations on murder. So there are 3,000 murder cases sitting out there ready for prosecution.

Let’s bring on the grand juries in Manhattan and Virginia, New Hampshire (FAA controllers), Shanksville, PA, Andrews AFB and wherever else was touched by the 9/11 goings-on. And, as well, in every county where there was a resident who was murdered on 9/11/2001.

We need, as a nation, to go right back to the start of all this illegal activity and start clearing it up.

If we don’t, we might just as well fold up the Constitution and leave the country to those ever-so-happy “richest 0.25% of the people in the nation.” Perhaps the other 99.75% of us could all move to Canada, or Africa, or Sweden, Norway, Finland, Cuba, Central America, South America, Australia, New Zealand.

Leave the former United States to the A’ananin (Aane); Abenaki (Abnaki, Abanaki, Abenaqui); Absaalooke (Absaroke); Achumawi (Achomawi); Acjachemen; Acoma; Agua Caliente; Adai; Ahtna (Atna); Ajachemen; Akimel O’odham; Akwaala (Akwala); Alabama-Coushatta; Aleut; Alutiiq; Algonquians (Algonkians); Algonquin (Algonkin); Alliklik; Alnobak (Alnôbak, Alnombak); Alsea (Älsé, Alseya); Andaste; Anishinaabe (Anishinabemowin, Anishnabay); Aniyunwiya; Antoniaño; Apache; Apalachee; Applegate; Apsaalooke (Apsaroke); Arapaho (Arapahoe); Arawak; Arikara; Assiniboine; Atakapa; Atikamekw; Atsina; Atsugewi (Atsuke); Araucano (Araucanian); Avoyel (Avoyelles); Ayisiyiniwok; Aymara; Aztec; Babine; Bannock; Barbareño; Bari; Bear River; Beaver; Bella Bella; Bella Coola; Beothuks (Betoukuag); Bidai; Biloxi; Black Carib; Blackfoot (Blackfeet); Blood Indians; Bora; Caddo (Caddoe); Cahita; Cahto; Cahuilla; Calapooya (Calapuya, Calapooia); Calusa (Caloosa); Carib; Carquin; Carrier; Caska; Catawba; Cathlamet; Cayuga; Cayuse; Celilo; Central Pomo; Chahta; Chalaque; Chappaquiddick (Chappaquiddic, Chappiquidic); Chawchila (Chawchilla); Chehalis; Chelan; Chemehuevi; Cheraw; Cheroenhaka (Cheroenkhaka, Cherokhaka); Cherokee; Cheyenne (Cheyanne); Chickamaugan; Chickasaw; Chilcotin; Chilula-Wilkut; Chimariko; Chinook; Chinook Jargon; Chipewyan (Chipewyin); Chippewa; Chitimacha (Chitamacha); Chocheno; Choctaw; Cholon; Chontal de Tabasco (Chontal Maya); Choynimni (Choinimni); Chukchansi; Chumash; Clackamas (Clackama); Clallam; Clatskanie (Clatskanai); Clatsop; Cmique; Coastal Cree; Cochimi; Cochiti; Cocopa (Cocopah); Coeur d’Alene; Cofan; Columbia (Columbian); Colville; Comanche; Comcaac; Comox; Conestoga; Coos (Coosan); Copper River Athabaskan; Coquille; Cora; Coso; Costanoan; Coushatta; Cowichan; Cowlitz; Cree; Creek; Croatan (Croatoan); Crow; Cruzeño; Cuna; Cucupa (Cucapa); Cupeño (Cupa); Cupik (Cu’pik, Cuit); Dakelh; Dakota; Dakubetede; Dawson; Deg Xinag (Deg Hit’an); Delaware; Dena’ina (Denaina); Dene; Dene Suline (Denesuline); Dene Tha; Diegueno; Dine (Dineh); Dogrib; Dohema (Dohma); Dumna; Dunne-za (Dane-zaa, Dunneza); Eastern Inland Cree; Eastern Pomo; Eel River Athabascan; Eenou (Eeyou); Eskimo; Esselen; Etchemin (Etchimin); Euchee; Eudeve (Endeve); Excelen; Eyak; Fernandeno (Fernandeño); Flathead Salish; Fox; Gabrielino (Gabrieleño); Gae; Gaigwu; Galibi; Galice; Garifuna; Gashowu; Gitxsan (Gitksan); Gosiute (Goshute); Gros Ventre; Guarani; Guarijio (Guarijío); Gulf; Gwich’in (Gwichin, Gwitchin); Haida; Haisla; Halkomelem (Halqomeylem); Hän (Han Hwech’in); Hanis; Hare; Hatteras; Haudenosaunee; Havasupai; Hawaiian; Heiltsuk; Heve; Hiaki; Hichiti (Hitchiti); Hidatsa; Hocak (Ho-Chunk, Hochunk); Holikachuk; Homalco; Hoopa; Hopi; Hopland Pomo; Hualapai; Huelel; Huichol; Huichun; Hupa; Huron; Illini (Illiniwek, Illinois); Inca; Ineseño (Inezeño); Ingalik (Ingalit); Innoko; Innu; Inuktitut (Inupiat, Inupiaq, Inupiatun); Iowa-Oto (Ioway); Iroquois Confederacy; Ishak; Isleño; Isleta; Itza Maya (Itzah); 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Pentlatch (Pentlach); Peoria; Pequot; Picuris; Piegan (Piikani); Pima; Pima Bajo; Pipil; Pit River; Plains Indian Sign Language; Pojoaque; Pomo (Pomoan); Ponca; Poospatuck (Poosepatuk, Poospatuk, Poosepatuck); Popoluca (Popoloca); Potawatomi (Pottawatomie, Potawatomie); Powhatan; Pueblo; Puget Sound Salish; Purisimeño; Putún; Quapaw (Quapa); Quechan; Quechua; Quilcene; Quileute; Quinault; Quinnipiac (Quinnipiack); Quiripi; Raramuri; Red Indians; Restigouche; Rumsen; Runasimi; Saanich; Sac; Sahaptin; Salhulhtxw; Salinan; Salish; Samish; Sandia; Sanish (Sahnish); San Felipe; San Ildefonso; San Juan; Sanpoil; Santa Ana; Santa Clara; Santiam; Santo Domingo; Saponi; Sarcee (Sarsi); Sastean (Sasta); Satsop; Savannah; Sauk; Saulteaux; Schaghticoke (Scaticook); Sechelt; Secwepemc (Secwepmectsin); Sekani; Selkirk; Seminoles; Seneca; Seri; Serrano; Seshelt; Severn Ojibwe; Shanel; Shasta (Shastan); Shawnee (Shawano); Shinnecock; Shoshone (Shoshoni); Shuar; Shuswap; Siksika (Siksikawa); Siletz; Similkameen; Sinkiuse (Sincayuse); Sinkyone; Sioux; Siuslaw; Skagit; Skicin; S’Klallam; Skokomish; Skraeling; Skwamish; Slavey (Slave, Slavi); Sliammon (Sliamon); Sm’algyax; Snichim; Snohomish; Songish; Sooke; Souriquois (Sourquois); Southeastern Pomo; Southern Paiute; Spokane (Spokan); Squamish; Sqwxwumesh; Stadaconan; St’at’imcets (St’at’imc); Stockbridge; Sto:lo; Stoney; Straits Salish; Sugpiaq; Suquamish; Susquehannock; Suwal; Swampy Cree; Swinomish; Tabasco Chontal; Tachi (Tache); Taensa; Tahltan; Tagish; Tahcully; Taino; Takelma (Takilma); Takla; Taltushtuntude; Tamyen; Tanacross; Tanaina; Tanana; Tano; Taos; Tarahumara; Tataviam; Tauira (Tawira); Teguime; Tehachapi; Ten’a; Tenino; Tepehuano (Tepecano); Tequistlateco (Tequistlatec); Tesuque; Tetes-de-Boules; Tewa; Thompson; Tigua; Tillamook; Timbisha (Timbasha); Timucua; Tinde; Tinneh; Tiwa; Tjekan; Tlahuica (Tlahura); Tlatskanie (Tlatskanai); Tlatsop; Tlicho Dinne; Tlingit; Tohono O’odham; Tolowa; Tongva; Tonkawa; Towa; Tsalagi (Tsa-la-gi); Tsattine; Tsekani (Tsek’ehne); Tsetsehestahese; Tsetsaut; Tsilhqot’in (Tzilkotin); Tsimshian (Tsimpshian); Tsitsistas; Tsooke; Tsoyaha; Tsuu T’ina (Tsuutina); Tualatin; Tubar (Tubare); Tubatulabal; Takudh; Tulalip; Tumpisa (Tümbisha, Tumbisha); Tunica; Tupi; Tuscarora; Tutchone; Tutelo; Tututni; Tuwa’duqutsid; Twana; Twatwa (Twightwee); Uchi (Uche, Uchee); Ukiah (Ukian, Uki, Ukia); Ukomnom; Umatilla; Unami; Unangan (Unangax); Unkechaug (Unquachog); Upper Chehalis; Upper Chinook; Upper Cowlitz; Upper Tanana; Upper Umpqua; Ute; Ventureño; Virginian Algonkin; Wailaki (Wailakki); Wailatpu (Waylatpu); Walapai; Walla Walla; Wampano; Wampanoag; Wanapam; Wanki (Wangki); Wappinger; Wappo; Warijio (Warihio, Warijío); Warm Springs; Wasco-Wishram; Washo (Washoe); Wazhazhe; Wea; Wenatchi (Wenatchee); Wendat; Weott; Western Pomo; Whilkut; White Clay People; Wichita (Witchita); Wikchamni; Willapa (Willopah); Winnebago; Wintu (Wintun); Wishram; Witsuwit’en (Witsuwiten); Wiyot (Wi’yot, Wishosk); Wolastoqewi (Wolastoqiyik); Wyandot (Wyandotte); Yakama (Yakima); Yanesha; Yaquina (Yakonan, Yakon); Yavapai; Yawelmani; Yaqui; Yinka Dene; Yneseño (Ynezeño); Yocot’an; Yokaia (Yakaya); Yokuts (Yokut, Yokutsan); Yoncalla (Yonkalla); Yowlumni; Ysleño; Ysleta del Sur; Yucatec Maya (Yucateco, Yucatan); Yuchi (Yuchee); Yuki (Yukian); Yuma; Yupik (Yu’pik, Yuit); Yurok (Yu’rok); Zapotec; Zia; Zimshian; Zoque; and Zuni Indian tribes we stole the continent from in the first place, and let the filthy rich see if they can control them without an army, navy, air force, militia, police force, highway department, courts, prisons, hospitals, etc. (That’s 699 distinct Indian languages, more or less, though there are a couple that are really a patois or mini-Esperanto for “trading purposes.”)

Let the “free market economy” folks free-market their way out of this one with nobody left but themselves and the Indians, with the Indians outnumbering the White Man 10,000 to one, and now inoculated against the yellow fever, smallpox, diphtheria, pertussis, etc., what brought ‘em low from 1492 and into the 1990s. The rich can send all their kids to North Carolina to learn to speak, read and write Cherokee. Which would indeed be “rich.” Andrew “Indian Removal Act” Johnson would spin in his grave; Davie Crockett would be cheering in his. No disrespect intended, of course.

Let us remember a quote from Benjamin Franklin, “Any society that would give up a little liberty to gain a little security will deserve neither and lose both.” On that note abuse of the Constitution, abuse of Human Rights, and abuse of Justice is no Democracy.

to Tom – and to the contributing voices, I am the caller, FORMER NAVY DIVER, who agreed that investigations and prosecution should go forward. THANK YOU so much for this conversation. We do need to shine light on this – for HEALING; the Constitution is all that we have. IT IS ALL THAT WE HAVE. and, I listened to everyone.
one added note: MY FATHER SPENT 1 1/2 YEARS IN
STALAG 17. HE WAS NOT TORTURED. Yes, he was an untreated “nervous wreck” for the rest of his life (PTSD was not acknowledged then.) He would be further violated if he knew that his country did this.
The troops are my brothers and sisters. I do not put this at their door. Hopefully, torture will not come to their door.
NOT IN MY NAME -
donna

Our nation would only benefit from some sort of “Truth and Reconciliation Commission” being empaneled to investigate what have been gross improprieties on a number of fronts at best, and heinous crimes at worst, all perpetrated by the Bush Administration. It insults the American people to say we couldn’t handle such an airing; in fact, it may be the only way for us to survive as an exemplar nation, given that so many of the allegations go to the very heart of our democracy. As to the simplistic suggestion made by some callers that torture may have saved lives and that only those who have some sort of military connection should be able to comment on this issue, it may be trite to say it but if such became the prevailing view then the terrorists could indeed claim some degree of victory. For justifying actions the terrorists themselves would embrace would clearly signal that our values have been compromised beyond repair. The bottom line remains that no one should be above the law, lest the rule of law itself become meaningless and/or ineffectual. At the risk of alienating those readers for whom brevity is the soul of persuasive argument, I nonetheless feel compelled to quote one of the most insightful passages of one of the most powerful plays ever written – A Man for All Seasons – as my conclusion. Though written about a different place and time, and taken a bit out of context, I believe it speaks volumes about the current situation, so I thank you in advance for your forbearance, just as I thank Tom and his On Point crew for tackling such a vital subject today:
Sir Thomas More: …What would you do? Cut a great road through the law to get after the Devil?
Roper: I’d cut down every law in England to do that!
More: Oh? And when the last law was down, and the Devil turned round on you, where would you hide, Roper, the laws all being flat? This country’s planted thick with laws from coast to coast — man’s laws, not God’s — and if you cut them down — and you’re just the man to do it — do you really think you could stand upright in the winds that would blow then? Yes, I’d give the Devil benefit of law, for my own safety’s sake.

I was dismaid when Tom cut off the lady calling about Ohio votes- to me this is the most serious crime and the truth shoul be told first!

Not going to happen, for the very simple reason that majority of the Democrats in the Congress signed on to whatever the Bush administration presented to them. So, if no one in the Congress has clean hands and both parties were complicit, that makes it really difficult to take a higher moral ground and start an investigation.

This was quite obvious after the 2006 mid-term elections when the Democrats won majority in the Congress on an anti-Iraq war sentiment, and then promptly dropped investigation/impeachment from the table and kept funding the Iraq war.

Anti-war and Bush-accountability people should have really supported either the Green Party, Nader or Ron Paul – as honest and unambiguous voices echoing those sentiments were found there, not in the Democratic party (with the exception of Kucinich). Fact of the matter is that both major parties are corrupt to the core and there’s really not that much of a difference between the two. So expecting Democrats to hold Republicans accountable is nothing but a joke.

Here’s a simple experiment: take 5-10 minutes and call your Democratic Senator(s) and Rep(s) in the Congress and ask them their opinion on investigating the Bush administration officials or impeachment. Good luck if you can get them to say they are unequivocally in favor of such an approach and would either initiate or support such a move in the Congress. That should disabuse y’all of your fancy notions regarding accountability and justice, and so much for the elected officials’ oath to serve and protect the Constitution.

We should not prosecute doing the RIGHT thing. 9-11 happened and if we knew it was going to happen again and had a foriegn terrorist in captivity that is part of the cell what should we do? Give him ice cream and ask him nicely. To bad the terrorist can’t single out all the morons that care more for the terrorist than innocent men women and children. When schools and grocery stores are being blown up by suicide bombers hopefully you will be snapped back to your senses and realize that there are monsters out there that what our society to collapse and they won’t be negotiated with.
I do think that all laws should be followed when dealing with american citizens.

Millard-Fillmore

That’s not how it’s done. You TELL your representatives, that are your elected officials what YOU want to see happen, backed by signatures of the people who elected them. That’s the problem, we ask. It’s Time to demand!

I demand this must be investigated thoroughly starting with 911. I’m tired of being lied to.

Mark Danner has written eloquently about what non-action is doing to us. Here’s how he begins:

“Scandal is our growth industry. Revelation of wrongdoing leads not to definitive investigation, punishment, and expiation but to more scandal. Permanent scandal. Frozen scandal. The weapons of mass destruction that turned out not to exist. The torture of detainees who remain forever detained. The firing of prosecutors which is forever investigated. These and other frozen scandals metastasize, ramify, self-replicate, clogging the cable news shows and the blogosphere and the bookstores. The titillating story that never ends, the pundit gabfest that never ceases, the gift that never stops giving: what is indestructible, irresolvable, unexpiatable is too valuable not to be made into a source of profit. Scandal, unpurged and unresolved, transcends political reality to become commercial fact….” http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22117

Dear Tom, guests, and listeners,

Without the rule of law, the very idea of America as a nation means nothing. It becomes a lie. No man, woman, president or high official can be exempt from the rule of law. No man, woman, president or high official can make up their own rules and laws as they go along.

The office of the President must be the most important example of the rule of law. Therefore if our country is going to heal, if we are going to live up to our principles, if we are to make things right in our country and in the rest of the world, then YES! The Bush administration needs to be held accountable for an illegal war. They need to be held accountable to the rule of law for crimes of torture, for extraordinary rendition, for Guantanamo Bay, for suspension of Habeas Corpus, for illegal wire-tapping… the list goes on. If we are to heal, we need truth and reconciliation. These people need to be held accountable for their crimes!

After this investigation, Congress should really get started on the AIPAC-influence, man-on-the-moon and BCS playoff controversies.

That’s not how it’s done. You TELL your representatives, that are your elected officials what YOU want to see happen, backed by signatures of the people who elected them. That’s the problem, we ask. It’s Time to demand!

0000

Steve, my friend. At least telling one representative was also tried, though I’m sure that the sentiment expressed by that Democrat was quite common among elected Democrats. And there’s no harm in trying again.

I’m posting most of the text of an op-ed (emphasis mine) which you may find instructive, if you haven’t read it already.

“Betraying Their Oath of Office
Impeachment, Cowardice and the Democrats

The meeting at the Jones Library in Amherst, Massachusetts on July 5, 2007 was anything but routine. Seated before Cong. John Olver (D-MA) were twenty seasoned citizens from over a dozen municipalities in this First Congressional District which embraces the lovely Berkshire Hills.

The subject-impeachment of George W. Bush and Richard B. Cheney.

The request-that Cong. Olver join the impeachment drive in Congress.

More than just opinion was being conveyed to Cong. Olver, a then 70 year old Massachusetts liberal with a Ph.D. in chemistry from the Massachusetts Institute of Technology. These Americans voted overwhelmingly during formal annual town meetings in 14 towns and two cities in the First District endorsing resolutions to impeach the President and Vice President.

Presented in the form of petitions to be sent to the Congress, the approving citizenry cited at least four “high crimes and misdemeanors.”

They included the initiation of the Iraq war based on defrauding the public and intentionally misleading the Congress, spying on Americans without judicial authorization, committing the torture of prisoners in violation of both federal law and the U.N. Torture Convention and the Geneva Convention, and stripping American citizens of their Constitutional rights by jailing them indefinitely without charges and without access to legal counsel or even an opportunity to challenge their imprisonment in a court of law.

Forty towns in Vermont and the State Senate had already presented their Congressional delegation with similar petitions.

Impeachment advocates reported the results to Cong. Olver from each town meeting. Leverett’s vote was 339-1; Great Barrington was 100-3. No vote in any of the towns or cities was less than a two-third majority “yes” in favor of impeachment, according to long-time activist, Atty. Robert Feuer of Stockbridge, Mass.

With three fourths of reports completed Cong. Olver, who voted against the war, raised his hand and said, “Spare me, I know full well the overwhelming majority of my constituency is in favor of impeachment.” He then told them he would not sign on to any impeachment resolution whether against Bush or against Cheney (H.Res. 333 introduced by Cong. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH)). He was quite adamant.

In taking this unrepresentative position, Rep. Olver’s position was identical to that of the House Democratic leadership and many of his Democratic colleagues.

The Democratic Party line on impeachment is that Bush and Cheney are the most impeachable White House duo in American history (they believe this privately). The Democrats do not want to distract attention from their legislative agenda, and need Republican votes for passage. Moreover, they do not have the votes to obtain the requisite two-thirds of the members present for conviction in the Senate.

Strangely, none of these excuses bothered Republicans when they impeached Bill Clinton in the House for lying under oath about sex and proceeded to a full trial in the Senate where they failed to get the required votes. Can Clinton’s “high crimes and misdemeanors” begin to compare with this White House crime wave?

The last question to Cong. Olver was from a young veteran back from Iraq and Afghanistan. “What could we possibly do to bring you around to our way of thinking,” he asked?

Cong. Olver’s response, after several seconds of silence, was “You have to prove to me that impeachment will not be counterproductive.”

[..]”

Google search will tell you who wrote this piece – I didn’t want to mention his name upfront as I’ve found that most people start having an inexplicable apoplexy at the mention of his name, and lose their faculty of reasoning as well as stop considering the points raised.

And guess what? John Olver was re-elected in Nov 2008.

If you do a cursory reading on US history, you’ll find that US Presidents in the past have got away with impeachable actions.

Our worst mistake was not prosecuting Nixon. Every president since then has more precedent to get away with stuff. Bush and Co. was talking about invading Iraq BEFORE 9-11 even occured. It was so disgusting to see Rumsfeld running asking “…was it Iraq…..was it Iraq…” as oppose to the proper question of “who did it”. So to all those that think Bush did nothing wrong, I’ll leave this:

No WMD

Outed CIA operative, Valerie Plame

Spying on American citizens, without warrants

OKed torture tactics which they tried to reframe as “harsh interrogation technique”.

Lawful protest groups put on Pentagon “Threats” list

AttorneyGate

Voter Suppression

If Obama does any of these things during his administration, I want all you Bush apologist to continue “looking towards the future”.

[merriam webster collegiate dictionary 11th ed.]pg1320 anguish of body or mind, something that causes agony or pain, the infliction of intence pain [as from burning,crushing,or wounding]to punish,coerce, or afford sadistic pleasure,distortion or overrefinement of a meaning or an argument, to punish or coerce by inflicting excruciating pain , to twist or wrench out of shape- as defined by webster i and most of the USA are victums of torture in than 9/11 caused me mental pain the day it happened and with all the stories about the US bringing down the building ourself do to poor constucion and the fact it would have cost billions to do that job right we would have needed to clear all of nyc a truelly impossible job we still have not proven or even come up with any weapons of mass distruction we did find the guy that sent anthax in the mail a 60 plus old man with on family who just happened to kill himself he was the third person blamed but the first two fought the charges one would think if this was really the guy that kill using the mail we would have heard more about it but nothing maybe he was not the guy just the fall guy this is the guy that closed down the houses and help bushes patriot act sneak though thanks buddy another strange story is the removel of that gold coin the last one on earth i think if was like a 1933 20$ gold piece that sat in the lobby of that building under lock and key only to be moved for the first time by order of the bush or you could just look at the many stories that point out the exposions that seem to have dropped the building ten floors below the hit and again twenty floors down from that i would also like to point out that not one attack has been even attemped on the oil fields over there but we paid out the xxx for gas they said it was do to the war but the war is still going on. yet the price is back to normol with the price pre barrel being so high how did the oil componies make so much profit when half my pay went to my cars fuel tank this was torture but bush made a KILLING [LETS PRETEND I MEAN $$$$]IN THE MARKET

I agree that the alleged corruption of our election system, if proved, is in the long run an even bigger issue than torture, heinous and unconstitutional as the latter is. Michael Connell, deceased in a single-engine plane crash on December 20, 2008, was the Bush IT expert who, on October 31,2008 was made to appear before a federal judge in Ohio after being subpoenaed in a federal lawsuit investigating the rigging of the 2004 election under the direction of Karl Rove. The judge ordered Mr. Connell to testify under oath at a deposition on November 3rd, the day before the 2008 presidential election. At that deposition, the only admission of substance was that, after an initial denial, Connell said that he brought Triad and SmartTech into the Ohio election game. Of course, these are the two companies identified by Republican computer security expert Spoonamore as rigging the 2004 election, Triad by pulling hard drives prior to the recount and SmartTech by running the election results through its GOP servers in Chattanooga before they got to the Ohio election computers.

After the deposition, the attorneys who brought charges against Connell said that they intended to charge Connell and others with Racketeering and Corrupt Practices. In July 2008, Cliff Arnebeck, attorney for the plaintiffs, had notified the United States Attorney General, Ohio law enforcement and the federal court about threats on Mr. Connell’s life, passed on by a tipster close to the McCain campaign. Arnebeck insisted that Mr. Connell be placed in protective custody. Mr. Connell told a close associate late in 2008 that he was afraid that George Bush and Dick Cheney would “throw [[him] under the bus.”

The plane that crashed over a suburb near Akron was piloted by Mr. Connell, its only occupant. Mr. Connell, a very experienced pilot, had had to abandon at least two flights in the previous two months because of suspicious problems with his plane.

One might indeed ask, all conspiracy theories aside, why the mainstream media (with the exception of a CBS affiliate in Ohio and the McClachey newspapers) did not, to my knowledge, even report the plane crash of a man closely associated with the Bush administration and its computer systems, a man who, at the time of his death, was under investigation.

Please stay on topic, be civil, and be brief.

In honor of the rules of the forum I’ll be brief.
This wont happen, due to a lot of things already mentioned.
Our history is filled with presidents doing bad things.

They have done a very good job of covering up the tracks and the law was taken to the edge of what is legal in context to war on terror and presidential powers.

For those who relish in posting HUGE posts that mean nothing, maybe start a blog so you can spend your days filling the internet with diatribes and dribble.

I will do more than stay on topic. I will be brief.

I’ve recently heard and picked up a phrase the covers the
whole discussion:

“Crime that pays is crime that stays.”

Viewed in that way you have the choice of living with government crime or prosecuting it.

warcrime as defined by webster – a crime[as genocide or maltreatment of prioners committed during or in connection with war ] its a good thing we hang sadom for his crime [pissing GEORGE BUSH off]i wonder what BUSH would do to people how planned to have him killed as was the case with sadom.wait didnt sadom put a price on BUSHES head and BUSH put a rope around sadom head. but the point i wish to make is as simple as webster put it to torure a prioner is a war crime and should be punishable by death. and in smiple court if a persons actions cause the death of a person it is murder.if a person actions cause a person to take their own life is the same as if one had killed them. how many prisoners killed themselfs in that prison [i believe they were killed and their familys were told and we were told they killed themselfs]NO MAN SHOULD FREED FROM GUILT SIMPLY BECAUSE OF HIS OR HER POSION IN GOVERMENT. IMPEACH BUSH if you think bush is a hero than HITLER must also be your hero he blow the doors off medical science. he set the bar for the pain throuth hold and we use much of imformation he found thought torture to help people today i guess its ok to torture the ends justify the means but one must think at what point do we stop if the local police think i know someone is staeling cable can they waterboard me till i confise.and if the pres.can get away with murder maybe he could get away with rape or robbery [what happened to all that money we did find in the walls of sadoms house millions of dollars in cash remember the seen on the news soilders hualing clear wrapped bundles of US cash. no weapons of mass distruction but they did find a real nice custom gun colliction were did that end up]

Joe, if you compare Bush to Hitler than you need to read your history books. I don’t like Bush, but I’m not that confused with reality. I understand in this forum you get an ego stroke by bashing Bush, but he is no Hitler, Stalin or whatever. I think Bush was misguided, maybe even a little ignorant, but no more than you.

I agree with you Big Jon. To equate Bush or Cheney with Hitler, Stalin or any other despot is absurd and cheapens the argument and is a distraction from the issues.

I’m as angry as the next guy with the Bush presidency however I feel that our government has been completely corrupted by corporate interest. So much so that any investigation will is hypocritical. There are so many things wrong, health care, pensions to name a few. You name it we have one screwed up mess here.

Thanks to Russ Weis for his quite appropriate quotation from Man for All Seasons. I was still a Republican (Goldwater fan) when I saw it.
A college professor in a religion class told us that the law is an essential part of God’s plan to provide justice to the world – including non-believers. (By the early 70’s it became clear to me that my Christian beliefs were incompatible with being a Republican. That has not changed.)
The importance of the law is widely recognized by conservative and/or religious people. As widely noted here, legislative attention to the lawlessness of the current administration is not going to happen. Legal recourse is the only viable option. It must go forward so that the law and justice may flourish in the U.S. – and the world.

[Here is a link to the Moyers show on impeachment:
http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/08102007/profile.html

I have not read all the comments so I don’t know where mine falls here, and without having fully listened to the show I must weigh in my strong feeling that SOME form of accountability ( not “history”) is absolutely necessary for us to go forward if we object to the precedents that have been set by this administration. We HAVE to say this is not the way we want to go forward. So it is not about retribution or punishment per se. It is about who we are as a country, as a collective, we who have countenanced this administration for TWO terms.

From DIGBY’s Blog:
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Sign in at http://change.gov/openforquestions

On the left menu, click “Additional Issues.” Bob Fertik’s question will appear at the top.
Look right for the checkbox, mouseover it so it goes from white to dark, then click to cast your vote

You can vote and make this issue a top issue for the new presidency!

[...] radio program was exploring the question of should the Bush administration be prosecuted for crimes they have [...]

Questions:
1. Why do we not permit interrogation within the domestic law enforcement/criminal justice system? Is it because of the human rights and/or 8th amendment, or is it because interrogation renders inherently untrustworthy data?

2. In recapping John McCain’s Time magazine article about torture, a guest implied that in the end we resort to torture because it works. Does that mean that we can resort to anything that “works”? What does it mean to “work” (e.g. short term obtainment of information vs. long term impact on US’s position as world leader on human rights)?

Samuel Johnson on LYING covered it perfectly, especially as regards to media:

On the Institutionalization of “infamy”

Having gone on record that Johnson has noted Familiarity’s thing, and Boswell has applied it TO Johnson himself, “losing respect after you get to know a persons ways”(prox) had to re-search Johnson’s and came up with still another. vis,

IMHO, nothing, Johnson has written can be more appropriately set down as the wisest writing for the current age:

“No. 30. SATURDAY, NOVEMBER 11, 1758.

The desires of man increase with his acquisitions; every step which he
advances brings something within his view, which he did not see before,
and which, as soon as he sees it, he begins to want. Where necessity
ends, curiosity begins; and no sooner are we supplied with every thing
that nature can demand, than we sit down to contrive artificial
appetites….

To write news in its perfection requires such a combination of
qualities, that a man completely fitted for the task is not always to be
found. In Sir Henry Wotton’s jocular definition, _An ambassador_ is said
to be _a man of virtue sent abroad to tell lies for the advantage of his
country_; a news-writer is _a man without virtue, who writes lies at
home for his own profit_. To these compositions is required neither
genius nor knowledge, neither industry nor sprightliness; but contempt
of shame and indifference to truth are absolutely necessary. He who by a
long familiarity with infamy has obtained these qualities, may
confidently tell to-day what he intends to contradict to-morrow; he may
affirm fearlessly what he knows that he shall be obliged to recant, and
may write letters from Amsterdam or Dresden to himself.

In a time of war the nation is always of one mind, eager to hear
something good of themselves and ill of the enemy. At this time the task
of news-writers is easy: they have nothing to do but to tell that a
battle is expected, and afterwards that a battle has been fought, in
which we and our friends, whether conquering or conquered, did all, and
our enemies did nothing.

Scarcely any thing awakens attention like a tale of cruelty. The writer
of news never fails in the intermission of action to tell how the
enemies murdered children and ravished virgins; and, if the scene of
action be somewhat distant, scalps half the inhabitants of a province.

Among the calamities of war may be justly numbered the diminution of the
love of truth, by the falsehoods which interest dictates, and credulity
encourages. A peace will equally leave the warriour and relater of wars
destitute of employment; and I know not whether more is to be dreaded
from streets filled with soldiers accustomed to plunder, or from garrets
filled with scribblers accustomed to lie.”

http://www.fullbooks.com/The-Works-of-Samuel-Johnson-in-Nine-Volumesx14285.html part 5 of 9

This is not a witch hunt. Our leaders have lied to the citizens of the US and lead us into a war. These people should be held accountable for anything and everything they have done which is against the LAW in the US.

You’ve made it sound as if prosecuting such leaders would tear our country apart, however the Bush administration has the lowest approval ratings of any president in US history. Everyone is ready to move on to Obama. No one cares about Bush. Hold these people accountable and prosecute them.

Also on the issue of having family in the military (which I do), I urge listeners to critically examine their thought that torture saves lives. A book by Matthew Alexander (pen name) who was an interrogator in Iraq named “How to Break a Terrorist” is first hand testament to the fact that torture is counter productive in rooting out terrorism and hatred toward the US.

TALK!!!!TALK!!!!TALK!!!! LET S SEE SOME ACTION!!!!!!!

I think we should send Rummy, Cheney and Bush to the Hague. Let them be tried with Charles Taylor, Milosevich and other thugs of international stature.

That’s the only way we can avoid the pre-emptive pardons Bush is going to issue to himself, Cheney and Rumsfeld. Bush will only be immune to the US court system.

Given the tarnished images of the Warren and 9-11 Commissions which both ignored testimony that didn’t fit their desired conclusion, why should we trust another “truth” commission to provide an honest assessment of our military and security agencies which have a long history of obfuscation?

An unfortunate lapse of judgment that you would have the wisdom to produce this program but fail to include Ralph Nader as a participant.

Hey.. I discussed and suggested (as far back as 7/10/07 (if not before) that we needed to:
Impeach Bush and Cheney
Start a war crimes tribunal (link1 here: http://markbnj.blogspot.com/2007/07/stupid-is-as-bush-does.html )

and/or an inquiry about
TREASON
go to my blog above and search “treason”
also:
I feel that we need to expect NOTHING from our country, perhaps a foreign government may try and prosecute.

also: I feel that the CRIMINAL negligence of DUTY (and delegation to the VP) is TREASON, but also wrote it is likely only dereliction of duty, which bush IS guilty of…
(search blog for treason )

cheers

PS:

I think what we REALLY need in this country is
a TRUTH and Reconciliation Commission (like the one that
was SUCCESSFUL in South Africa)

That can help make our nation more honest, give us TRUTH, and forgive (exclude jail time!) the people who confess:

Look here for a post from last September:
http://sos-newdeal.blogspot.com/2008/08/topic-of-week-this-week-truth-and.html

The key here is that people testifying (whether on POLITICS, Business malfeasance (think sub-prime mortgages) or simply cheating on your corporate taxes)
WOULD all get to publicly admit /humiliate themselves, and WE the people would get the TRUTH…

And those NOT testifying Would be subject to prosecution…

Wish I hadn’t missed the live show today!

Would be happy to discuss this with anyone!!!

sos-newdeal.blogspot.com

Why we need a new-deal to get out of THIS SECOND DEPRESSION!!!

Nat ganna do it.

Wouldn’t be…prudent.

The people have spoken in the November elections, the consequences were borne and the Republicans were defeated.
This issue is only real to the loony left. Let a prosecutor waste a couple years just to make these people go away.

Dems are spineless. God-damn Republicans would put the Commander in Chief under investigation for all kinds of inconsequential crap because they care deeply about being in power and siphoning billions of people’s money into private pockets. The Bush gang should absolutely be put on trial. If nothing else, perhaps they can answer under oath where all those hundreds of billions of dollars of people’s money went. Who got which contract and for how much and what we got for it. Make them account for every dollar.

VICTORY for TERRORIST!!! Their goal, disrupt and confuse an enemy. They have accomplished their goal, they have caused our society to turn against itself and to devour one another. Their ideology is simple, they want us dead and if you think otherwise, then open you eyes. 3,000 souls were tortured by fear, burned alive and crushed by the actions of these terrorist on 9/11. This has been going on for years. Check over the last 25 years how many Americans and others have been brutally murdered by these poor terrorist. How do you reason with a people who believes this distorted theology. We woke up with Pearl Harbor after Americans were killed, will it take a musroom cloud to wake us up again! Do not think for one instance that this is not an option the terrorist are working on. What is our reponse to terrorism? Lets crucify the Bush administration, lets show the world something about accountability, truth and the rule of law. I live in greater fear today of being, shot, robbed, murdered, swindled, beaten, raped and eaten alive by my own fellow Americans than I did 30 years ago. At least under the Bush Admin. I was not afraid of being blown up in my own country by terrorist. How many people does someone have to murder before we say, death sentence? How many women and children have to be raped or beaten before we say, enough is enough? Do we Americans even know what Illegal means. A person who murders for the cause of Allah, needs to be with Allah. Yet! none have been granted their request, they are in prisons being housed and fed with mine and your tax money. If the 3-5 terrorist who were water boarded could have saved one American life, it was well worth it. At least they lived through their torture. Those who have been tortured by the terrorist can not speak for themselves, they are dead! Do not get me wrong, I am a strong believer in law and order and punishment for evil doers, whether it applies to us or to them. The problem, we can not sit down and consitute laws that distinctly determines what is right and wrong in this country anymore. There are to many loop holes and we don’t have the stomach to bring ourselves to punish someone severely for their crimes.

First off, torture is only one of the many issues about which the administration should be investigated, and tried if evidence leads to possible conviction. Those who want to argue that we should be allowed to torture in certain instances – sorry, that’s patently un-American. Yes, the terrorists want to destroy us, but they’re not capable of doing so, at least not directly. They can hurt us, but they can’t destroy us. The only thing they can do is incite us to destroy ourselves. If we torture, we’ve abandoned our values made ourselves more like them.

Scott Horton may feel that the torture issue is so big that it takes precedent over all other potential crimes, but I’m not sure I agree. Illegally spying on American citizens, suspension of habeas corpus, renditions,… these are all very serious Constitutional crimes. (If found to be criminally liable for renditions, then prosecute Clinton also. Prosecute all criminals of all parties.)

Our Constitution is the key to our credibility in the world at large. We need to demonstrate that we still regard it as the foundation for our country. Not only do we talk the talk, but we walk the walk.

And I agree with the others who feel our country is plenty strong enough to handle an investigation and criminal prosecution. We’ve survived Watergate, Clinton’s impeachment (over lying about a b-job for crisakes!), and we can survive this.

Or, maybe Obama should just declare Bush and Cheney (and Rumsfeld? Wolfowitz? Addington?…) enemy combatants, and ship them off to Gitmo, or some such place, and deny them lawyers, visitors, hearings, etc. That’s all well within the President’s power, as established by precedent.

I can tell there are no prosecutors on this board and few lawyers. Wackos, we got plenty.

I suspect Obama will do nothing because he doesn’t want to ruin his chances of using the same powers Bush did. Bush did a great job equalizing the balance of power between the executive and legislative branches. Obama’s no fool.

Obama will not do anything that could jeopardize his chance of being re-elected. This will be left up to “the people”. We must fight!

This isn’t about Bush, Cheney and henchmen. We need a public and universal discussion about our personal responsibilities as citizens of a democracy when our government breaks the law. We expected Germans to “act” during the holocaust when their government was murdering innocent people and we “blamed” them for their silence. Our government has given torture its blessing, violated the Geneva Convention, and violated the Constitutional rights of its citizens to such basics as a fair and speedy trial. We knew all of this: Abu Graib was not a secret. If we don’t have a vigorous and painful national dialogue about what we must expect from ourselves, as citizens of a democracy, when our government goes off the rails, we have morally failed as much as Bush and Cheney failed.

Getting back to basics, where it all started, namely 9/11/2001

The Cheney/Bush administration has been consistent in claiming that Khalid Sheikh Mohammed “is the mastermind of 9/11″.

There has been no proof of that offered in any tribunal where testimony and evidence are introduced under oath.

And what is also true about the “19 hijackers” is that there has been no proof offered in a court of law. While you might reply that, Dude, they be dead–no alleged perps to prosecute. But there have been sightings of the alleged suicide-perps–those 19 on the FBI’s “wanted” lists, perambulating hither and thither elsewhere in the world. That is, they be “alive and well.”

Maybe with the exception of ‘the alleged ring-leader,’ whose daddy said he got a call from him on Sept. 12, 2001, in which he quotes his son, Mohammad Atta, predicting that he–the son–is not going to be alive much longer. And of course there have been responses by Bob Muller to the reports of the hijackers being alive and well to the effect that, Well, we’re not sure about all of them we put on the list–had to do it quickly, and all of that. And, as I recall, the names of the hijackers, as listed by the FBI, did not appear on any of the flight manifests of the four commercial jets on which they were said, by the government, to have been riding/hijacking.

Quite frankly, while killing prisoners of war during torture is a capital offense under the US War Crimes statute, that would only cover the deaths of from something like 20 to 100 homicide cases in our POW camps–Gitmo, Bagram AFB, various secret ‘black sites’ around the world.

Of much greater significance is the deaths on the day of Sept. 11, 2001, however, number something like 2,752, at least in the collapse of the three buildings in the World Trade Center (the twin towers and the 47-story skyscraper called WTC #7 or Seven World Trade Center). It was privately owned by Larry Silverstein’s outfit. I don’t know whether #7, like #1 and #2, were insured “against terrorist attack”. Another something to look into.

We need to start back at the beginning of this entire illegal rampage, or “go back to zero (or ground zero, in this case)” and start all over again.

I personally consider all the NBIGTRATS* documentation generated by NIST and FEMA, and Phillip Zelikow’s well-written novel, “The Official 911 Report,” I think he called it, incomplete, inconclusive and, in general, more designed to obfuscate than to illuminate what occurred on 9/11.

* I’m not completely certain of this acronym, but heard one gov’t official use it to describe the NIST and FEMA reports as “nobody is going to read all this ’stuff’”, by way of explaining that the reams of paper consumed in its printing were meant to mislead and obscure any real evidence or analysis hidden away in the thousands of pages.

As for “tearing up this country,” that’s just some kind of propaganda scare tactic. The greatest danger to our civil order — our “domestic tranquility” — is to permit people in high places to get away with murder. Or, more precisely, 2,752 murders, plural.

Or to get away with trillions of dollars from the Federal Reserve vaults (there is no money in the “federal treasury”–only IOUs, debts, loan repayments, with compound interest, owed to “purchasers” of “treasury bonds.”)

In this country, unlike in other countries, we are eminently able to countenance even the assassination of our presidents without taking to the streets in a general strike or similar. If anything, such an event would seem more likely to “tear up the country” than would having a president, vice president, secretary of state, secretary of defense, etc., sitting, in leg irons, at the defense table in a US courtroom.

Even the redoubtably insane Republican campaign to somehow get rid of Bill Clinton–a campaign that raged, mostly at public expense, for the duration of Clinton’s 8 years in office — did not “tear the nation apart.”

One can see how it might have done so, as the Republicans were completely abusing the legal and constitutional process and should have been charged with said abuse. But the nation was not torn apart–just the US Constitution, if anything, figuratively typing.

Personally, I can’t imagine a more reassuring sight to the nation’s stability of having our highest officials held to account for crimes committed while in office.

Indeed, I would be happy, relieved, reassured about the durability of our republic, were I to see all of the 535 invertebrate members of congress ALSO at a defense table in a courtroom, defending themselves against conspiracy charges in aiding and abetting the Cheney/Bush administration in their multitude of criminal activities. Not only did they NOT uphold their oaths of office, by investigating, impeaching, trying and removing from office the members of a criminal administration, they also furthered the goals of the administration, through legislation and monetary appropriations.

Just imagine what the history of the past eight years would have looked like if Congress had exercised its responsibility to:
Create an independent investigation of 9/11, of the failure of the most sophisticated and expensive military in the entire world to be able to protect major US population areas from bombings. To investigate why it is that all of the people in charge of these failed efforts have been promoted, not fired for their failures (unless, of course, the promotions are, as per usual, a reward fort good performance, but the performance awarded in this case is the counter-intuitive one of “doing good by deliberately failing to perform your duty”?

Think for a moment of the images of the Secretary of Defense, in shirtsleeves, having abandoned his post as civilian head of our military when the nation was arguably under attack, and being an extra, unnecessary, excess, superfluous supernumerary on the Pentagon front lawn. If the nation’s capital, capitol, White House, Pentagon were really under attack, would he have been out romping on the lawn, helping to carry the already-injured to a 1st aid station or ambulance?

Unless the man was unhinged, I’d have to say that was dereliction of duty, abandoning one’s post when under fire. At any rate, we need to start from scratch on this investigation, even though a lot of the evidence was destroyed, with incredible speed when you reflect on how many people watch TV shows like Crime Scene Investigators: [NY, Miami, Buffalo, LA, Boston...wherever] and know that crime scenes are not supposed to be disturbed until the forensics teams, the arson inspectors, the building inspectors, the structural engineers, the air- and water-pollution teams, the insurance adjustors, the DAs and federal prosecutors, the FBI, CIA, SEC, NSA, and police have completed their assigned and necessary work.

What we witnessed instead (or at least caught glimpses of, because of the bravery of some photographers and videographers who sneaked past the police, who were preventing firemen and others from continuing rescue and recovery operations) was the rapid and systematic destruction of a crime scene–the scene of a mass murder–by the very government agencies and instrumentalities that should have been facilitating and ASSISTING in the investigations. Yet another instance of “counter-intuitive conduct” on the part of our governmental units.

What we need, to bring this nation back together again, is for accountability to be brought into the light of day, so that a nation that is ALREADY torn apart by distrust and suspicion about our government.

That will be a healing thing, 180° in the opposite direction from “tearing the nation apart.” I would humbly request, suggest, urge you, Tom, to eliminate that hysteric’s locution from your otherwise luminous lexicon of broadcast constructs.

bw

PS: Don’t forget to report on the U-6 unemployment numbers tomorrow (friday, 9 January 09) along with the U-3, or so-called “official” unemployment figures. The number is included in the same table from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. It’s on this page: http://www.bls.gov/news.release/empsit.t12.htm

Last month’s figures had U-3 at 6.7%, while U-6 is pegged at 12.5%, which is, I think you’ll agree upon reading the BLS descriptions of the numbers, a more accurate take on what’s going on in the job market these days than the narrow U-3 statistic.

The crimes must be prosecuted, although I think the outcome will be about as effective as the Iran-Contra trials. However, there is no other way to effectivly address the precedent that has been established and prevent these criminals from getting jobs teaching in our universities.

Excellent show. Scott Horton’s eloquence on these important and urgent issue is music to my ears, and

I was disgusted when Andrew McCarthy characterized Horton’s arguments as “cute”; it reminded me of Alberto Gonzalez referring to tenets of the Geneva Conventions as “quaint”.

The spirit of our nation in upholding the Rule of Law and condemning acts of torture and other atrocities must find its expression in serious, extensive and deeply probing investigations, and prosecutions where appropriate.

It sickens me when I hear arguments and indications that Bush and Cheney are too big to jail.

This is a clasic example of America’s hypocrisy and spinlessness:

Clinton is impeached with a reach around because he committed adultery; but Bush, who has made policy that supresses rights, goes back to Dallas because the process is too tedious in ‘the current climate.’

What the hell is this country about if it isn’t about bringing everyone…not only gangbangers…to justice!

But the reality is that if we hold up the choice to most Americans:

1) Mete out justice to those who have basterdized our American culture

2) Find out what is happening to Britney Spears

We know that #2 will will be overwhelmingly chosen. So why bother with the former?

We are a country that gets what it wants…knowing the cost of everything, but the quality of nothing!

I love the photo in the title, a quartet of despots.

i loved this song wen i first herd iy. now i love it more