Comments on: Crime Labs and Dismal Science http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science On Point is a live, two-hour morning news-analysis program, produced by WBUR 90.9 and NPR. Sun, 22 Nov 2009 02:35:35 -0500 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.8.4 hourly 1 By: Evan http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-15566 Evan Fri, 24 Apr 2009 14:31:16 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-15566 Has Harry Edwards, James Doyle or Barry Scheck ever been to accredited forensic laboratories in the last few years and seen for themselves the level of documentation and training required of laboratories/forensic scientists? Has Harry Edwards, James Doyle or Barry Scheck ever been to accredited forensic laboratories in the last few years and seen for themselves the level of documentation and training required of laboratories/forensic scientists?

]]> By: mike http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11271 mike Sat, 21 Feb 2009 17:40:48 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11271 when i was younger, i seen cops and heard from people how cops used forensic expects to convict innocent people and than found it was the wrong person. what happens it someone is force to a plea deal for a crime that there did not commit based on forensic science, does that person get compensated for the error?, do the police get in trouble? or is it a my bad situation? i feel there are 2 sets of courts one for the rich and elite, who are asked to come in, do not have to testify to there crimes, hanging at home while the case is going on, than there the other poor, minority, where your guilty till proven innocent,and often time cops with throw charges that are not even true to force a plea deal. I do agree that it should be independent from law enforcement cause i believe that it is abused more than people like to let on. I do not believe in the system as it stands today is fair and feel forensic science is used in place of real evidence even when it is unlikely its true.exp black male between 5'8 and 6'2 170 to 220 pounds so therefore x did it cause he is 5'9 and 180 pounds. I also believe there should be more liability for officers,experts who wrongly convict people and what currently is the liability or responsibility for the officers/experts to thoroughly do there job. Is it without a doubt the person has done it? no its just enough, and blaming lawyers and not officers as well does not solve the problem cause the officers are the ones who put them there, and if like many(not all) have control of the forensic science it will be biased, and officers who know this to be true will not tell due to there own personal code of protecting each other. when i was younger, i seen cops and heard from people how cops used forensic expects to convict innocent people and than found it was the wrong person. what happens it someone is force to a plea deal for a crime that there did not commit based on forensic science, does that person get compensated for the error?, do the police get in trouble? or is it a my bad situation? i feel there are 2 sets of courts one for the rich and elite, who are asked to come in, do not have to testify to there crimes, hanging at home while the case is going on, than there the other poor, minority, where your guilty till proven innocent,and often time cops with throw charges that are not even true to force a plea deal. I do agree that it should be independent from law enforcement cause i believe that it is abused more than people like to let on.

I do not believe in the system as it stands today is fair and feel forensic science is used in place of real evidence even when it is unlikely its true.exp black male between 5′8 and 6′2 170 to 220 pounds so therefore x did it cause he is 5′9 and 180 pounds.

I also believe there should be more liability for officers,experts who wrongly convict people and what currently is the liability or responsibility for the officers/experts to thoroughly do there job. Is it without a doubt the person has done it? no its just enough, and blaming lawyers and not officers as well does not solve the problem cause the officers are the ones who put them there, and if like many(not all) have control of the forensic science it will be biased, and officers who know this to be true will not tell due to there own personal code of protecting each other.

]]> By: Sue http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11246 Sue Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:41:11 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11246 Sorry, I have one more question. Regarding wrongful convictions, what best represents your thoughts: most wrongful convictions are the result of shoddy forensic science, or most wrongful convictions are the result of other systemic problems with the justice system, such as reliance on eyewitness testimony and informants with dubious motives, or other. Thanks. I promise to stop. Sorry, I have one more question. Regarding wrongful convictions, what best represents your thoughts: most wrongful convictions are the result of shoddy forensic science, or most wrongful convictions are the result of other systemic problems with the justice system, such as reliance on eyewitness testimony and informants with dubious motives, or other. Thanks. I promise to stop.

]]> By: Sue http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11245 Sue Fri, 20 Feb 2009 19:31:53 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11245 I am curious about what the On Point listeners learned from this program. Please help me out by posting your comments so I can gage what the general reaction is to this program. 1. Regarding the state of forensic science what best represents your thoughts: forensic science is completely unscientific and unreliable, or forensic science is often reliable but its application is spotty, or other. 2. Regarding the integrity of forensic scientists: most forensic scientists are too poorly educated and are often duped into saying whatever law enforcement wants, or most forensic scientists fear for their jobs when working for law enforcement and say whatever law enforcement wants, or in general, forensic scientists reach their conclusions based on their results, not the influence of law enforcement, and keep their integrity intact, or other. 3. Regarding the ability of defense attorneys and the public to determine if their law enforcement crime lab is producing reliable results: currently, there is no system of oversite for crime labs and no way to know if the results are valid, or the defense and the public have ways of determining if their law enforcement owned crime lab is issuing reliable results (did this program help you learn the ways and what are they?). Thanks for your help. I think this is one of the great benefits of these sites. I am curious about what the On Point listeners learned from this program. Please help me out by posting your comments so I can gage what the general reaction is to this program. 1. Regarding the state of forensic science what best represents your thoughts: forensic science is completely unscientific and unreliable, or forensic science is often reliable but its application is spotty, or other. 2. Regarding the integrity of forensic scientists: most forensic scientists are too poorly educated and are often duped into saying whatever law enforcement wants, or most forensic scientists fear for their jobs when working for law enforcement and say whatever law enforcement wants, or in general, forensic scientists reach their conclusions based on their results, not the influence of law enforcement, and keep their integrity intact, or other. 3. Regarding the ability of defense attorneys and the public to determine if their law enforcement crime lab is producing reliable results: currently, there is no system of oversite for crime labs and no way to know if the results are valid, or the defense and the public have ways of determining if their law enforcement owned crime lab is issuing reliable results (did this program help you learn the ways and what are they?). Thanks for your help. I think this is one of the great benefits of these sites.

]]> By: More Media Coverage of Forensics Report | Innocence Project http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11188 More Media Coverage of Forensics Report | Innocence Project Fri, 20 Feb 2009 10:50:15 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11188 [...] On Point: Crime Labs and Dismal Science - One-hour radio show with Judge Harry Edwards (the co-chair of the committee that published the [...] [...] On Point: Crime Labs and Dismal Science – One-hour radio show with Judge Harry Edwards (the co-chair of the committee that published the [...]

]]> By: Mark http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11181 Mark Thu, 19 Feb 2009 23:42:27 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11181 Barbara Bishop wrote, "I am a regular CSI watcher and was aware that the technology is portrayed correctly, but that most of the rest, especially the time lapse, was not." I wish to inform you that you are incorrect and I'm not sure where you were led to believe that the technology was portrayed correctly. It couldn't be further from the truth. As a forensic scientist I can assure you that much of what you see is embelished, unrealistic, and incorrect. Examples that come to the top of my head are a fingerprint being searched in the AFIS database. In the real world you don't see the scrolling of fingerprints on the screen and then suddenly the "match" appears on screen with the suspect's name, picture, address, favorite color, etc. It is time consuming process in which a list of potential candidates is provided to an examiner who then does a detailed comparison, not the computer. Another example is when a victim was stabbed with a knife and the "CSI" poured some casting material in the wound and when removed, there was a perfect outline and representation of the knife. This simply is not possible. These types of things are why the so-called "CSI Effect" has been created and has given potential jurors (who assume what they see on these shows is "portrayed correctly") an unrealistic expectation of what they think they will see as evidence presented in court. Barbara Bishop wrote, “I am a regular CSI watcher and was aware that the technology is portrayed correctly, but that most of the rest, especially the time lapse, was not.”

I wish to inform you that you are incorrect and I’m not sure where you were led to believe that the technology was portrayed correctly. It couldn’t be further from the truth. As a forensic scientist I can assure you that much of what you see is embelished, unrealistic, and incorrect. Examples that come to the top of my head are a fingerprint being searched in the AFIS database. In the real world you don’t see the scrolling of fingerprints on the screen and then suddenly the “match” appears on screen with the suspect’s name, picture, address, favorite color, etc. It is time consuming process in which a list of potential candidates is provided to an examiner who then does a detailed comparison, not the computer. Another example is when a victim was stabbed with a knife and the “CSI” poured some casting material in the wound and when removed, there was a perfect outline and representation of the knife. This simply is not possible. These types of things are why the so-called “CSI Effect” has been created and has given potential jurors (who assume what they see on these shows is “portrayed correctly”) an unrealistic expectation of what they think they will see as evidence presented in court.

]]> By: Frederic C. http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11174 Frederic C. Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:54:35 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11174 Escapism and the Entertainment Industry-What Should America be doing with its time? The, 'CSI effect,' the 'Law and Order effect,' the 'you name it,' effect; all of these 'effect,' are due to the inadequate distribution and quality of our education system. It is the substitution of entertainment for education. DNA evidence is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain of evidence. Escapism and the Entertainment Industry-What Should America be doing with its time?

The, ‘CSI effect,’ the ‘Law and Order effect,’ the ‘you name it,’ effect; all of these ‘effect,’ are due to the inadequate distribution and quality of our education system. It is the substitution of entertainment for education.

DNA evidence is only as strong as the weakest link in the chain of evidence.

]]> By: Barbara Bishop http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11173 Barbara Bishop Thu, 19 Feb 2009 17:31:41 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11173 This was a fascinating show. For one thing, IT WAS NOT ABOUT THE ECONOMY! I am a regular CSI watcher and was aware that the technology is portrayed correctly, but that most of the rest, especially the time lapse, was not. The shows, in fact, depict some of the problems discussed this a.m.: law enforcement is mixed with the forensics (most of the CSI personnel are also police persons, arrest people and so forth). Things that amuse me about the shows are that everyone is beautiful or good looking; and the women all have long hair which they do not tie back or up (won't their hair contaminate the scene????). Anyway, fascinating show. I am going to read the report and I hope congress will act on it. This was a fascinating show. For one thing, IT WAS NOT ABOUT THE ECONOMY! I am a regular CSI watcher and was aware that the technology is portrayed correctly, but that most of the rest, especially the time lapse, was not. The shows, in fact, depict some of the problems discussed this a.m.: law enforcement is mixed with the forensics (most of the CSI personnel are also police persons, arrest people and so forth). Things that amuse me about the shows are that everyone is beautiful or good looking; and the women all have long hair which they do not tie back or up (won’t their hair contaminate the scene????). Anyway, fascinating show. I am going to read the report and I hope congress will act on it.

]]> By: Michael Molla http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11172 Michael Molla Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:58:57 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11172 Wait. I've got that wrong. Please delete my previous comment. Wait. I’ve got that wrong. Please delete my previous comment.

]]> By: Michael Molla http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/02/dismal-science/comment-page-1#comment-11171 Michael Molla Thu, 19 Feb 2009 16:58:08 +0000 http://www.onpointradio.org/?p=13790#comment-11171 I think the guy who you keep calling "Jim Doyle" is not Jim Doyle. I think the guy who you keep calling “Jim Doyle” is not Jim Doyle.

]]>