President Bush displayed great courage in allowing enhanced questioning of these terrorists. The CIA show great restraint in using them on only the “worse of the worst”. We need to move on and concern ourselves with fighting the terrorists and not ourselves.

Tom: Please do a show detailing the enhanced questioning practiced by Saddam and al Qaeda.

Worst of the Worst please,so bad we let a few hundred go, and can barly prositicute some of the others due to lack of evidences.

There are some that are really bad but torture is wrong, and cannot be justified, The bush Admin tried to legalize something that never should. didnt the hauge state “i was only following orders is not a defense”

Beside the facts it help promote anti- U.S. feeling around the world, and information for people who are is often questionable and faulty.

We as Americans are supposed to be above what say sadam or al quada might do.

Was not the whole thing about not torturing because the information is often wrong along with the fact we dont want our men and women getting torture as well.

We the progressives here think that Bush Administration people should be prosecuted to the full extent of the International Law for torturing (fake) prisoners for using a small percentage of the illegal torture techniques that were being utilizen against an average Palestinian citizens into submission for about 50 years.
… But we can talk about that; we may hurt some feelings and we will be called names.

Let’s just talk about American action only.
Good Job!

Can anybody see the 1-to-1 corrolation?
…david, Michael Mukasey, Pearle, Ladeen

People who love the past and current U.S. Foreign Policy in the Middle East, they also kindly advise us to Move On. Let’s just Forget about the illegal acts of Torture, and let’s just move on – just because…

How do you waterboard the same individual 183 times? I mean that just seems like beating a dead horse, and defies common sense. If it doesn’t work after 6 or 7 times, doesn’t that tell you something? Such as: any further waterboarding is nothing more than sadism?

Bush and everybody else that ordered torture of any kind should all spend the rest of their lives in prison. Are we the light of the World or are we not? We can’t have it both ways.

One of my friends attended SERE school while in the U.S. Navy back in the late 1970’s. Water boarding, locking in a box, loss of sleep were very effective in obtaining information from the students. Everyone, including U.S. Navy SEALS broke. So these means of questioning are effective and yes, everyone breaks.

It is not a question of right and left, but rather basic American justice and violations of it at the highest levels. As the New York Times included in its April 19 editorial
“The Torturers’ Manifesto”:

“Until Americans and their leaders fully understand the rules the Bush administration concocted to justify such abuses – and who set the rules and who approved them – there is no hope of fixing a profoundly broken system of justice and ensuring that these acts are never repeated.”

Jane’s second guest (Robert Turner) just said that ignorance of the law is a good defense for Bush, Rumsfeld, and others. He didn’t deny that the law was broken.

Frankly, we aren’t the light of the world and haven’t been for years. We also claim to be a developed country. Our moral stature has slipped over the past several decades, and now our economic strength is ebbing. At this juncture, the very least we owe our country is to obey the laws we helped to write, laws we have enforced in the past. The prohibition of torture and punishment for its use is one of them.

Being “great” isn’t a given. It’s earned. We need to earn it back.

How could torture instructions be so specific if they had not been done already? And if they’d been done already – who had done them/ experimented with them previously? What is the relationship of the CIA and the people who designed these tortures? Are the CIA and those who created these tortures the same people? Who were the test subjects?

We wouldn’t have the issues today, if former President Bush didn’t classify everything from energy policy on up. When that type of policy is implemented, everyone questions the policy as a whole.

Whatever happened to “truth serum” being faster, cleaner, and far more effective than torture in obtaining information? Isn’t torture considered as likely to produce false information as true? Is using torture, versus science, really intended to intimidate groups or governments the U.S. considers enemies?

Please let us not forget. The internal corruption is so huge and undescribeble…within the Gitmo and the torture sessions there was incredible overtime billing and contractor/consultant agreements.

For some…policy just did not matter. All they saw was easy money and $$$ signs. Don’t know which one is worse…being heartless/cruel/criminal or making money from other people’s pain.

As a veteran of Iraq and a former army officer, I could not use ignorance of the law or “just following orders” as a defense while I was deployed to Iraq. Every person is an independent moral agent and must take responsibility for his or her own actions.

At the very least, why not prosecute those lawyers and policy makers who developed and signed off on these ridiculous policies? This is embarrassing…

If an interrogator has to use harsh methods to get information, s/he isn’t very good at her/his job.

I am very disturbed that the agents involved in these “harsh” interrogation techniques don’t possess the internal moral compass that should have dictated the techniques weren’t right.

This argument is our obligation as a society to uphold the dinity of human beings–no matter what their crime.
There is nothing more important than that.

It’s not about terrorist, it’s not about CIA operatives. It’s about our elected officials at the highest level who took decisions that had the effect of eroding away our core values.

If Bush Administration lawyers were not familiar with Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions, it was their obligation to consult with international humanitarian law experts–at the International Red Cross and elsewhere–to make sure they understood the U.S.’s obligation to comply.

The reason why they didn’t seek expert advise is becuase they were arrongant, they beleived themselves to be above the law.

We need to investigate who made the decision to order torture tactics and then prosecture them (forget CIA operatives; go straight to the top.) We need to come to grips as a society what crimes we have condoned. Until then we can not move on. It is not enough for Obama to say “we won’t do this anymore.” What is to stop the next president from saying Obama is wrong. We need to carry on these tactics.

Obama thinks he needs to focus on the economy. There is no other issue–even the economy–that is more important than this.

If, after WWII, we had said, “Germany is in ruins. We need to rebuild its economy. Let’s forget the crimes,” would anything have changed?

If President Obama wants to lead by example instead of by lecturing, then he’d better follow international law and both investigate and prosecute the torturers.

These memos don’t read like legal documents. I did a word search on one of them for the word “law.” It came up twice. I also searched for “technique.” It came up 29 times.

That memo was a “how-to guidebook” on how to get away with a crime.

My question is this: why do criminals in the US – no matter what the crime – ‘deserve’ better protections than these ‘terrorists’? If we caught a serial-pedophile, our officials wouldn’t torture him/her for information – no matter how terrible the crime. But when people who aren’t US citizens – but are PEOPLE nonetheless – commit acts against this country, they seem to be treated as less-than-human.

What if somebody waterboarded Americans? The Japanese did it, and I believe they were tried for war crimes.

If the President is elected in November and sworn into office in January, how does he have enough time to set policy if he’s busy picking his cabinet and still learning about the country’s & world’s state of affairs? The President doesn’t act alone. He is advised by his cabinet. But how can he set policy with a cabinet that is still in the process of taking shape? Too much has already been “done” under Obama to believe that it was Obama’s agenda to begin with if he wasn’t given top secret briefings until around the time of his election. Obama is being given too much credit for current policies, especially, if he is suddenly betraying his campaign promises.

Given the history of this Country and the evil of some in the last administration Obama may at times have to refrain from doing some things just to protect his own life. Even though that is too bad we may have to live with that.

Two points:

I think that Obama’s ability to take decisions on a case-by-case basis and inform himself fully about each one is the reason that he looks like he comes down on “both sides” of this issue. I can understand people being wary of non-transparency, but at the same time it is clear that this presidents decision-making *process* is vastly different than the last president’s. It is comforting to me that he seems motivated not by across-the-board ideology, but by the facts of each situation.

Second, why can’t there be prosecution of higher-ups? I understand the reasoning for not prosecuting agents, but how can we ensure that investigation into the root of these decisions is done properly?

I cannot believe the statement by Mr. Shapiro, that A.G. Holder can do whatever he wants in pushing a prosecution, regardless of the President’s position. That is hopelessly naive on its face. Although Mr. Holder has substantial autonomy as A.G., he, and every other political member of the administration serves at the sufferance (or pleasure of the President.

Going off the reservation, too far would, and should, invite prompt dismissal. A major policy initiative such as is being discussed would only be undertaken after discussion and coordination with the White House.

Why were lawyers giving advice about what constitutes torture? They don’t appear to have any particular expertise on the topic of physical limitations. While it might be appropriate for them to look at treaties and advise that torture is inappropriate, it seems that what constitutes torture is beyond their purview. It seems that that kind of advice should have come from biologists or physicians.

The fundamental issue is that civil servants MUST be subject to the rule of law. Bypassing fundamental principles of Common Law dating back to Magna Carta is an abomination; violating habeas corpus by incarcerating people without charge, without presenting evidence for challenge by the defense, and without limitation is an abomination; subjecting people WHO HAVE NOT BEEN CONVICTED OF A CRIME to pain and deprivation is not punishment, it is torture — and an abomination by the standards of international law to which the United States is a signatory. If we allow these violations of the rule of law to escape investigation and due process — note that I am not assuming conviction — then we weaken our own culture and make the triumph of totalitarian dictatorship an increasing possibility.

In terms of the gaining of actual intelligence out of using “enhanced” interrogation techniques….I would imagine most people would say Anything if put under waterboarding 183 times…..this. Watch the movie “Rendition”…..shows this in pretty disturbing fashion….albeit hollywoodized

How do we know that these people are bad guys without a trial?? Many of the detainees were turned in for a bounty by neighbors and acquaintances, perhaps to settle a grievance, perhaps just for the money.
In any case, the question of torture as a method for anything is morally off the charts in my book. Try a truth serum. It’s no more or less reliable.

Ari Shapiro is one of my all-time favorite correspondents!!! He speaks so clearly; so “structurally”. I wonder if he originally studied architecture or graphic design? He doesn’t just speak in words; he sets up verbal structures which hold the words and hold the thoughts! He ALWAYS makes sure you are clear on the antecedents for his pronouns. If he sets up a comparison, he keeps that comparison both in form and content as he proceeds. He uses grammar as an EXQUISITE form of communication and therefore helps me understand extremely complicated issues! Thank you, Ari!

Torture forces people to concede to false accusations or to make up stories that please the torturer in order to stop the suffering. If 9/11 was a conspiracy, then the torturers are simply bolstering 9/11 propaganda with false confessions. Furthermore, these false confessions can then be used as a pretext to justify illiciting further false confessions through the use of torture.

If exposing the CIA makes them more risk-averse, that is a GOOD thing. Look at their history. It’s a Legacy of Ashes, as the book documents. Truman was right–they should stick to analyzing intelligence, not attempt to wage war secretly.

Good Morning,

I feel very strongly that we need a truth commission on this issue of torture and its use by the United States. I have written my representatives in Washington D. C. to this effect, but I do not see enough movement on this.

how can you possibly waterboard someone over 6 times a day?

[ Aside to PBS: I'd like to see a "Fred Friendly-style" debate on this one. ]

Re: ” The Japanese did it, and I believe they were tried for war crimes.” ( NAZI’s etc)

THE big difference between then and now is that these people are not “soldiers in uniform”; not part of an army on the battlefield.

Think about the objectives:
1. The taliban is trying to kill all non-muslims.
2. We are trying to find out info.

I won’t get into “are they guilty/innocent”, but assume that YOU interrogated them and found that some WERE in fact members/leaders of a group that intended to blow up YOUR town. In fact, not only do they have a plan, they have NO other reason for living EXCEPT to blow themselves up – along with your town/ family.

You’re in charge – how do you deal with them? THAT’s the big question we need to answer. THIS is our enemy – yet no uniforms… they might live down the street. Geneva convention ? Miranda rights ? They are not ’soldiers’, nor ‘citizens’ – so we don’t arrest them ? Go back in time – prior to arrest – these are ‘the bad guys’. You’re in charge: what do you do ? Your family wants to know. So do I, because we need SOME solution.

Go here and watch this month’s Frontline World – a SCARY 27 minutes of video. This is the mindset of our ” new enemy”.

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/pakistan802/video/video_index.html
==============================
(Before you say ‘another right-wing nut’, I thought Bush and Cheney should have been impeached if they really lied after 9/11; Orrin Hatch should have be arrested after saying on CNN “We know that is was OBL that did it: we just heard him on the radio talking to his troops”. It must be true – that was our premise for going in there, right? If it was true and he was chairman of Intel committee, arrest him for treason. He just told the enemy that we had his phone tapped ! Having said that, the Dems didn’t arrest him so they’re to blame too. They are both too political.)

We need to help Obama. We need to Make him push for punishment of these crimes. Politically very demaging for him to initiate the prosecution process without severe pressure from the base.

It takes some of the most brazen idiocy to agree in any way or form with water boarding or any of the torture that we, as Americans, have done (for it IS a reflection on us all).

There is not an apologist adding commentary here who supports such an immoral activity that has a grain of integrity about them.

And from what I have read, if the posters many of the posters here are what is representative of America, the “Christian Nation”, then we are truly screwed.

Hypocritical maniacs are the only ones who could endorse such a thing.

Looks like Lilya is now being blocked from this board.
She was too critical of US Policy in the Middle East.

Ok, back to usual, after silencing one voice that was speaking the truth.

Lilya also posted a comment about Surveillence on Americans. At the heart of Telecom Company surveillence, there is a company called AmDocs Corp.

It was not an American Company. If we investigate the dirty connections and contracts between the CIA and that company, some inconvenient truth may come out; which may explain why Obama played defense while he was a senator.

But Lilya’s comment about this company blocked from this forum about 2 hours ago.

Peaceful1, thanks for posting. It can be said that there’s 2 sides to a coin or sword for that matter; but of course this topic’s a bit more complex than that. What you write represents yet another contingent of public opinion in favor of torture & pre-emption.
I thought I was done here but I’ll briefly play the devil’s advocate.

This is not just about national security, right vs. wrong, or reasonability as to how much is too much.
This is also about PRECEDENT. There has been a gradual increased trend in the news about fears over home-grown terrorism. Given present-day rhetoric, should American citizens be subjected to torture if they are SUSPECTED of a crime OR LABELED a TERRORIST?

I thought that, in this country, people were innocent until proven guilty and not guilty until proven innocent – like maybe in some other countries. Such things as rights & due process were the result of a long evolution. And these are the things that make America great. In contrast, torture is based not even on pretense but on mere conjectured possibility. It is punishment prior to conviction. And let’s not forget the issue of “cruel & unusual” as brought up in the Bill of Rights of our Constitution. People sue cops for this. Imagine if you couldn’t.

Now, what if you, as an American, went on a trip but was detained because your name matched the name of someonebody else on the no-fly list. Should you be tortured based on the possibility that you are the same person as that other person on the list because of the fear of home-grown terrorism?

I just have one thing I’d like to say. Please listen and please understand.

AMERICANS DO NOT TORTURE! Or rather, that is what I used to believe. I grew up thinking that America was a better place. A place governed by the rule of law. A place where idealism was valued more highly than pragmatism. In fact these are the ideas that are supposed to separate us from, and make us more enlightened than the rest of the world. The sad truth is, we are not that enlightened, and in fact, as a country, we are no better than any other. SHAME ON US!

Nazi Germany tortured. Japan tortured. North Korea tortured. Cambodia tortured. Chile tortured. Argentina tortured. Vietnam tortured. China tortured. Irag tortured. Russia tortured. Uganda tortured. South Africa tortured. Turkey tortured. Libya tortured. Egypt tortured. Angola tortured. Haiti tortured. The Dominican Republic tortured. Guatemala tortured. Cuba tortured. Venezuela tortured. Burma tortured… THE UNITED STATES TORTURED.

I hang my head and weep. Today is a sad day for human rights. A sad day for idealism. A sad day for the world. Frankly, it’s a sad day to be human. THIS IS NOT THE AMERICA THAT I BELIEVE IN!

We need to make things right.

Do you guys remember why US Delegation in 2001 has boycotted the Durben I UN Conference on Ending Racism?

I was to young to remember back then.

How can that reasoning and act of boycotting be compared with Durben II Boycott?

need some education here.

Torture is illegal, period. It also does not work.
Real life is not like a TV show such a 24.

Why so many posts on an open and shut case. Obama is not acting in good faith on this.

Bush/Cheney and company will never be prosecuted for any of this. Best get used to it.

Coercive interrogation is forbidden by the Geneva Conventions, period. You cannot start down that slope without ending up at the bottom. Prosecution of all involved is critical if we are going to regain any credibility at all. It has been well-established that following orders is not a legitimate excuse. The US government screamed bloody murder when the Soviets used sleep deprivation. We will not be able to do that again until we clean up our own house.

Lilya has been a corrosive commenter. On the other forum about Dr. Izzeldin Abuelaish she was very nasty and no matter how one tried to have a debate, yes it was heated, but she decided to use personal attacks.

I’m not sure if this is the reason for he comments being stooped, but I would wager it was, and not her comments about the US government. If so then most of the above would have been removed as well, no?

I think it is a good idea to respect peoples points of view, even if we are opposed to them and they make our blood pressure go up. I know I have been guilty of losing my temper on this forum and I have to it only makes you look like and idiot and immature. Forums such as this are for civil debates and discussions on the topics that are presented on the show. Learning how to be rational in a debate is a good thing, and never take it personally or personal. It’s simply not cricket as they say in the UK.

Looks like Lilya is now being blocked from this board.
She was too critical of US Policy in the Middle East.

Ok, back to usual, after silencing one voice that was speaking the truth.

Posted by Brianna, on April 20th, 2009 at 11:14 am EDT

Brianna, FYI if the above named is being blocked it’s because she uses just about every discussion to go off on an anti Israel rant. Her comments are superficial, ahistorical and just plain ignorant.

Her immature half-baked comments give real Jew haters a bad name.

As opposed to yours, right Freddy.

Come on, jeffe, you demonize those you can’t debate on merits.

I demonize those I can’t debate on merits? This just what Way to go Arnold your making my points for me.

First of all define merits in context to Lilya’s absurd diatribes? This is what I mean, and I will include myself in this, I have lost my temper as well. However I don’t see why people should carry on like this, making snarky remarks just to puff your chest. Grow up.

Arnold lets get one thing straight, if we can’t be civil, this forum makes no sense.

On the issue of Torture and Prosecution of Bush Admin Official

Please pay special attention to what Obama Chief of Staff say and which side of the argument he supports.

Why is he doing that??? Hmmm, very Suspicious?

In Ari Shapiro’s on-the-left on-the-right comparison introduction he characterized the UN Special Rapporteur on Torture, Manfred Nowak as an example of one “on the left”. As one who has called out China on its “widespread” torture, who pointed out torture in Saddam Hussein’s Iraq and who called the US on the now-declassified practices, how can the UN Special Rapporteur be so characterized? It seems more correct to say that a neutral observer is lamenting a likely violation of the UN Convention Against Torture, signed and ratified by the United States.

Let me get this straight.

The past 4-5 years, I have been working janiotor/office (ft) cleaning business (pt) and been paying my taxes.

These guys at CIA and the security consultants / contractors were being paid with my tax dollars to issue detailed Torture Manuals version 34?

And they were flying all over the World and staying in Touristic Hotels and going to bars at night and turning in an Expense Report… and the subject of these activities with my money was: Torturing People of Other Countries?

Even if not a single torture activity was not illegeal, I want anybody and everybody involved in this to be jailed to the mandatory extent for wasting my hard earned money. No exceptions.

I want Accountability down to each lie, each crime, each penny they wasted on Torture!

Torture doesn’t work, as has been demonstrated. When you’ve water boarded someone 150 times, as they did, do you trust what anyone would tell you on #151 ?
I’m a WWII story. I support amnesty here for our guys.

Taking heat from both sides confirms that the President dose not speak for the left or the right, but for the majority of American Voters…

Ari Shapiro has a fundamental misunderstanding of our government: He stated that President Obama can suggest that someone not be prosecuted but that the AG has the ultimate authority on this issue. Wrong! The AG, unlike a special prosecutor, works for the President. The President is the chief law enforcement officer in the country. Ultimately, no one can be charged by the Department of Justice if the President says no. On this issue, the President is the “decider” not the advisor.

As a former POW, torture victim and long-time fixture in the American political landscape, not to mention the fact that he was nearly the President of this nation, I am curious as to what Senator John McCain’s opinion is in this discussion.

I think water-boarding probably crosses the line into torture, however I can still admit to having some uncertainty. The other measures seem much more difficult to declare with authority as “torture”. Torture means nothing if it cannot be defined in practical terms. I believe there was a good-faith effort to draw the line by the government. Also, this is the CIA we are talking about. Much of what the CIA does is illegal under US and international law. I suspect in future the CIA will be more cautious, and after the next inevitable intelligence failure they will be roundly criticized for not “connecting the dots”. It make you wonder why anyone would stick out their necks in that business.

[...] discussion on the topic of the Torture Memos during their On Point program today. You can listen to the show online (click the “Listen to this show” button near the top of the web [...]

Jonathan,

Great job on the show! Enjoy your accurate honest and sincere advise on legal issues. Glad the small issue of the destroyed torture tapes came up at the very end of the show. I would have like to hear what you had to say about that. Why were they destroyed if the interogators didn’t think they did something illegal and would be punished for it?
I wish you and other forthright Americans would address the fact many or the interogators were Israelis following methods used by the Israelis on their detainees, meaning torture of one kind or another.
Our support and colaboration with Israel puts us in a very dark place. Inspite of the fact that they are not US tax payers, that country gets more financial and military support with no strings attached than any place else. Wouldn’t some tax paying Americans citizens and States deserve better especially in this economic downturn? Are they permanent wards of this country? as Wolfowitz desscribed of other poorer places receiving much less economic aid.
Furthermore, how can Hillary and Obama talk about human rights with a straight face when “our allie” and benefactor has committed such human right violations in the GAZA and the occupied territories. The number of woman and children killed in the recent Israeli incursion and by the illegal use of white phosphorus and DIME weapons is beyond justification of the inaccurate rockets fired to protest illegal blockade and strangulation of GAZA. The Israelis no doubt with Cheneys support baited the rocket firings by their actions and then responded in a very harsh and preplanned way. Isn’t that obvious? Bush wanted to do the same thing by faking us into war with Iraq by a phoney aircraft shoot down. He used and destroyed Colin Powell’s credibility instead.
The hypocrisy is unbelievable. What about the UN resolutions against Israels occupation and expansion. Has the US conveniently forgotten about that or as one of the callers put it, do we support a double standard?
One for the US and Israel and another for everyone else?
Pls address some of these issues next time you are on the radio or on air with Keith Obermann.
Value your insights and analysis.
Alway,

J

Lilya’s back.

What about rape? Wouldn’t that be considered torture?
If you gave someone the choice of being raped or waterboarded with the possibility of death due to cardiovascular or pulmonary insufficiency I wonder if they wouldn’t choose to be raped.
We all know as Jonathan put it very well waterboarding is torture and has been defined as such for quite a long time. Bottom line, Bush lied again when he said this government does not torture, he did. There should be a trial not only for the fact that this illegal act was ordered, but also due to the fact that he lied about it. That lie is much more significant than some stupid lie about sex that almost removed Bill Clinton from office. I hope congress will pursue this and clarify the ambiguity Obama seems to be content with.

J

Jeffe,

Those worn out lables like calling me Lilya or an antisemite to dismiss a valid arguement are so passe.
It is time to call a spade a spade and stop human rights violations and racism by whoever is comitting it even if it is an “allie” and country we have invested in heavily for over 50 years. Israel has used politics and money to keep it’s supporters in line avoiding accountability for long enough. People with vision like Adm Zumwalt, former President Carter, Freeman, Noam Chomsky, and Amy Goodman who speakout for policical and economic justice and against Israel’s wrongful actions have been marginalized and ridiculed, but what they say is true and should be listened to.
You can delude yourself, but it won’t help to make progress. Lasting peace will not come by occupation and oppression it will just require a hugely disproportionate military budget. The less a country needs to spend on defense the better it is run and the more successful its foreign policie and position of leadership achieved. Hopefully we will get there eventually and push Israel in the right direction.

J

I read this board every day, but no longer even look at lilya’s comments. Don’t read a word anymore. Why does someone have to lecture and pontificate constantly? I feel her comments often add little to the “discussion.” It comes across as simply needing to be 100% right, 100% of the time. When I read her stuff in the past, it’s always as if, without question, we should believe that her facts are 100% correct–and that’s not the case. Corrosive commentator, and absurd diatribes is right. I’m done with that ranting.

Felipe said:
“This is not just about national security, right vs. wrong, or reasonability as to how much is too much. This is also about PRECEDENT…. in this country, people were innocent until proven guilty and not guilty until proven innocent ”

I’m not taking sides – it’s just that when people volunteer to blow up themselves, ( to kill others), there is not much negotiating you can do. Just give me an alternative.

You can arrest them , appoint a lawyer, wait for a court date – oops another group of people (or soldiers) was just blown up by another ’suicide bomber’. The killer wasn’t a soldier wearing a uniform. He wasn’t carrying a visible weapon. What do you do ?

I believe we are at that point. We are not at war with ‘nations’: rather bands of terrorists are “at war” with us. ( Not just the US – remember Spain, Italy, Fiji etc bombings – they don’t like anyone that isn’t “like them”)

We did not react to earlier signs of aggression and what did that get us ?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks

Please reread my first post: I’d like to resolve this peacefully. Did you watch that PBS video link in my message ?

http://www.pbs.org/frontlineworld/stories/pakistan802/video/video_index.html

Don’t you think that if we REALLY wanted to torture people we could ‘just do it’ – no paperwork, no requests. Right ? If we were REALLY bad guys, why are there SO many records /history of this action.

I understand your point, but I believe that ” the bad guys” know exactly our system of justice and are using it against us.

To my earlier example: the clock is still ticking, You have determined that YOU have captured some ‘bad guys’ that are high up in the plot to kill your people. Last week their group killed all the teachers and took over a school full of children. Another patrol car was just blown up while driving down Main St…. slowly everyone/everything in your town is being destroyed – you’re in charge. After you read the bad guys their Miranda rights, what do you do ?

The town awaits your decision.

Sabre the problem is that this show was not about Israel.
If your going to use every forum to make this point it becomes a problem. You start to sound like Lilya, which was what I was hinting at.

I do not support everything Israel does, far from it.
I also do not support torture as I have stated.

Are you an anti-Semite? I never said you were. However if one keeps saying the same thing over and over again and with the mind set of the extreme left, which seems to me to be very hypocritical when it comes to Israel.

At least it seems that way to me by some of the comments I read here and on the Democracy Now news report and site. (excellent program by the way, even if I don’t agree with everything they say). What I see is complete condemnation of all of Israel with no room for any nuance. Not everyone in Israel is a Zionist or an extremest. If I said these things about Arab countries and Iran would you not be critical of me? I would hope so.

I am new to this NPR board.

Is it true that an organization named AIPAC usually threatens the Senators and the members of the Congress, if they were to pass a law that does not favor Israel?

I heard this on foreign press; but I thought if was illegal to do that kind of a thing.

Is that really true?

*****Given the history of this Country and the evil of some in the last administration Obama may at times have to refrain from doing some things just to protect his own life. Even though that is too bad we may have to live with that.*****

I agree, and most people probably won’t look at it this way. And lots of times, we can be so focused on our own agenda, instead of a bigger picture. Personally, I think Obama has done so much good, at least his intensions were good, than all the things Bush has achieved for the last 8 years.

Don’t blame me – I voted for Nader, who drew a clear line on the issue of torture, unlike Obama who is trying to play both sides. And Nader warned of this problem way back last year – that if Obama wins the election, he needs to distance himself from Bush’s torture policies and take a different route, else he will become accessory to the crimes committed under Bush.

I’m so glad I voted with my conscience for someone whose stand on issues was based on principles and not pandering, and my vote wasn’t based on “lesser of the two evils” thinking. That’s the gap between our own stand and whom we vote for, which needs to be closed, for the situation to improve.

I voted for Cynthia and supported Nader.
They are the only two who were speaking up.

However, in general, Obama is down deep much more socialist and radical. He is playing their game. He has to let Rahm call the shots for a while.
Or else…, does anybody remember Sirhan Sirhan and Jack Rubinstein?

Can you imagine if everything about the Torture stuff comes out… what international contractors were used, how the billing was made to CIA and how much.

CIA guys did not do most of the torturing, they contract them out.

Imagine….

Invoice # Gua0465
Inmate 8654 …… kept sleepless $245.00 /hr
Inmate 3576 …… finger nail removal $610.00 /nail
Inmate 3543 …… dipped in fake menstrual blood $465.00 /bucket

Don’t laugh….these things did happen in the dark corners of Cheney’s CIA.
Massive abuses Abu Ghraib boiled down to 1-2 rural kids who has never had a passport before. How did they figure out to exposing Arab guys naked; or having each other’s genitals touching their friends body? Who were the tutors behind the scenes?

cant take credit for the below but i thinks gives like to the thread

1. Those that would sacrifice freedom for security will have neither

2. Our ethics only count in the most trying of circumstances, not during times when no challenge exists

3. We must carry on the fight our founding fathers started even if we must face attacks from everywhere, the constitution must stand

ying,

somehow yes, call it old guilt, but as our country becomes more diverse, and people are able to see whats really happening in the world public opioion is changing , one currunt example was Charles “Chas” Freeman Jr, who was viously attacked and smeared base on a even-handed approch towards israel,

or giyus.org thats use by israelie bloggers to spin public opioins in there favor by fluiding a chat, thread, or hys .

hopefully in the years to come so will our politicans as well. but currently any critizism on israel or aipac is meet with personal smears and attacks, no matter how factual it is.or meet with someone else did bad so can we as well.

Hi Peaceful1,

not sure if u are aware of this but life is not like the show 24 and should not be treated as such. and once u make those type of senerios than it gives other countries the ability to do the same, N. Korea,china, cuba, iran( bet if they waterboarded the jounalist)she will say she was spying.

because we (assumed) to be better than this countries, and democracy states we have humans for all we must not torture unless we give way for legitimaticy for other repressive countries to do the same.

sorry meant to say human rights for all.

Hello Mike sometimes it’s hard to understand your sentences. hopefully in the years to come so will our politicans as well. but currently any critizism on israel or aipac is meet with personal smears and attacks, no matter how factual it is.or meet with someone else did bad so can we as well.

What are you really trying to say here?
That because some pro Israeli blogger’s are spamming that if you don’t agree with them one should do the same?

I think the best way is to make clear points. Anyway the reality of the situation is that blogs don’t influence foreign policy.

How ironic for “jeffe” to accuse someone else of being corrosive. After all, he is the peson who responded to a person by simply calling him or her a “left wing nut” and responded ot one of my comments by (falsely) claiming that I use a name, Sept 1, “is an old PLO moniker. Back in the day when they were hijacking planes and killing Israeli athletes at the Olympics.”

Like most of his ilk, he attacks anyone who disagrees with him rather than engaging in rational discussion.

(By the way, not everyone who uses sept in their name and/or disagrees with “jeffe” is either a member of “black september”)

Mike,
I wasn’t meaning to be Jack Bauer, just stating : this is happening now – WHAT DO WE DO ?
No one as yet has proposed anything except to read the bad guys their rights, and send them to trial. These people have been brainwashed and WANT TO DIE. Again I’ll ask – how to stop the rest of these kooks from doing the same ?

This IS their game plan: they want to die and they want to kill non-believers along their way. I’m not making this up: watch their videos – read their writings.

Do we just let them kill and then put each in jail AFTERWARDS ? What do you propose ?

Hi jeffe,

nope unlike some im happy that i can read others people view points. i only present evidence to back my claim when i am called on it,

Instead of having a constructive conversation, some go to personal attacks and name calling, like yourself even on this post.

as example sabre, Lilya , sept 1,just a few. And now myself,i said i respected your point and agreed to disagree with u. as u admitted u do lose your temper online.

so please try to be more civil and if u wish to debate than debate with facts and information.there nothing wrong with someone challenging your opinions, beliefs, views as u can do the same. when one is hostile to another it sets a swirling precedent and lack of respect for that poster.

as u may or may not realize this blog influence people which than in turn influence politics than in turn influence policies. As most news stations, and outlets are turning to blogs qualified or not.

if u wish for me to further explain myself or fine facts,if u wish to find out where i get my information from, and where i came to that conclusion than that is fine, if u wish to derail people from stating there view point that is not.

As for torture just remember if the u.s. sets the precedent its okay to torture. once this is set we will not have legal, moral grounds to tell others countries not to as well.

Mike, I was not attacking you. Sorry I think you misunderstand what I was asking. I was simply asking you to clarify your post which seemed a bit disjointed.

How is that a personal attack? It’s the way you write with abbreviations and the lack of punctuations. This sometimes clouds the ideas you putting forth. I do agree with about torture, I said so ages ago.

Sept 1… ah yes accusing me of attacking you for making a comment on your name. My mistake for the misuse of sept 1 and Black September. But I was hardly attacking you just questioning your motives, and the September connection seemed to fit. However, if you want me to insult you…

Left wing nut is hardly a heavy insult now is it. If one keeps doing what Lylya has been doing yelling a t everyone all the time, then this is how is comes across. That is how it comes across to me, as extremist. This is an aspect of the left I have a huge distaste for. They are as bad as the extreme right. I have very little time for fools and extremist.

You want to call me names go right ahead, I’m an adult and it’s not a problem.

I still think however that your comments are based on Palestinian propaganda. I’m sure you’ll have a smart come back, accusing me of being some kind of pro Israeli right wing nut who wont debate you on the merits of your comments. What were those again?

hi jeffe,

what i meant, is that in todays u.s. politics, its is almost taboo for a u.s. politican to say anything critical about aipac, or israel it is meet with often nasty smear and attacks from there lobbist. I my statement was that to ying that i hoped that our politcal atmosphere would change in the future to have actual debate and a fair shake instead of the current, and often force responsed to be one-sided by our politicans.

Peaceful1,

if it meant i had to torture, abuse, someone else to save others no. do u torture their families to get them to talk,u would be able to get information but what does that do to our democracy if thats what it takes.

what if it is the wrong person do i tell there family i did it cause i thought he knew something.What happens if we dont get information we want do we go to more extremes to get it?

My answer to u is what the cia, and some militarys officals started in iraq, to befriend and talk to and understand enemeies that may be turned to our side.

The hardline approch will only created hardliners who will rather blow themselves up than get caught because they will think we will torture.

“what i meant, is that in todays u.s. politics, its is almost taboo for a u.s. politican to say anything critical about aipac, or israel it is meet with often nasty smear and attacks from there lobbist.”

Mike, maybe you should check out what Green Party and Nader say about AIPAC and the Israel-Palestine conflict, and how it aligns with your own thoughts on the issue, instead of only looking at Democrats/Republicans, both of whom are beholden to special interests which compromises them.

BTW, how do you know that what you’re seeing in the media regarding the Israel-Palestine conflict and which influences your thinking, is not propaganda (from either side – both sides indulge in it)? How do you differentiate propaganda from facts? Did you do that exercise before you made up your mind?

Hi millard-fillmore,

the best thing i found to figure out facts, is to actually follow events, not when it is a hot topic but leading up to it. I listen to both conserv/liberal media,read up on my own of history and events. I read both foreign and american media as well, wbur, npr of course. often times i found that the truth or facts of the matter is before the big event happened because once that event happens u have all sides trying to spin it, as of before its (most of the time) straight reporting.

some examples, where the lead up to the gaza war there was a small news story, in israel, and the bbc about israelie commandos going into gaza on nov 4th killing russian peacekeepers. but once the the war started there was no more mention of it. as the same for georgia/russia conflict where georgia invaded S.O. after signing a cease-fire at midnight but once russia countered them it was lossed for weeks in the media and only shown that russia attacked georgia.

or just a few weeks ago about the torture memos, the red cross documented what was done, and often the same methods used, yet when the memos come out there is now a spin underway to validate torturing. or before the irish had to vote to ratify the e.u. treated,being bullied and told if they voted for or agianst it would be honored, yet once the vote was out, (hot topic) there was only mentioning in the media on how to hold another and get enough people to vote for it again.

most of all i dont take what someone tells me at face-value i often try and research what is told to me.

some sources to look at RIA, euro news, bbc cbs news(not finanical), fact-check.org,npr, I found to be the least biased.

some source to get opposing politcal views, Nyt,msnbc,youtube, wastinton p,democracy now,foxes(but cant take it serious since it main host are proven wrong time and time again) if there was a moderate right leaning news source i would watch.along with different college professors as well (T.E.D) most the time.

If u have others sources i would love to know.

The order to use torture came from the top, Rice and Cheney both signed off on this. I know a lot of people will say that having trials on this will hurt the country, however I think not having them will hurt us more.

The Bush administration broke the law of the land. They also broke international laws in regards to torture.

You can’t base a foreign policy on “being liked”. During my 30 years of living overseas in Asia and the Middle East the average person I delt with liked and respected America. They did not concern themselves with terrorists getting slapped around and having their hair get wet. It’s a much more brutal world outside of the USA and we need to take harsh methods with those that want to destroy us.

David

Grow up. Nobody wants to destroy us. You are making it up.

If my name is Leyla in a deeply religious and fundementalist islamic environment, can you give a single reason and excuse with which I am going to gain something by destroying and harming anything American.

You are making up lies. Why would anybody “destroy” somebody accross oceans?

Can you give us a scenario or an example that you have seen during your 30 years?

Lilya, I think those 2200 people that died in the WTC would disagree with you. That’s proof enough. The real question is “where will the moslem terrorsts strike next?”