Religion is often the cause of hate, intolerance, racism, and is often breed to tell people that our church/religion is the only true religion and not to believe others religion.As old scripture, teaching preached the above.

though good things come from religion often times the leaders control and dictate what and how to believe which than causes the above.

along with it being nearly impossible to follow everything each religion tells u without breaking another rule opposite to the one u in the same area

Nor the logical point and historical point of the time frame of earth, dinosaurs,nor the stories if told today u be considered crazy.

I suggest checking out Dan Dennett A secular, scientific rebuttal to Rick Warren where he talks about that all reilgion should be taught in school not in a bias way but factual of history point of how each started and evolved, to show children all points of view or to believe or not.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DTepA-WV_oE

“all reilgion should be taught in school not in a bias way but factual of history point of how each started and evolved, to show children all points of view or to believe or not.”

Who’s to say there is a such a thing. If I honestly though religion could be taught without bias I would be in favor of it. The problem is much of what we know about religion comes from religious literature just from the bible there’s very little secular history about Jesus for example and that doesn’t even get into old testament biblical characters such as David, Ruth, Noah, or Joab which are virtually non-existant in secular histories. Beyond that secular research always has a bias towards demystification because it assumes that only those things that are quantifiable exsist which whether proper or not from a researchers prospective is a substantial bias.

Finally, there is also something to be said for the idea that relgious faith may not be best understood through the context of analytical tools. For example, what if there wasn’t a patriarch of the human race named Adam? what does that tell be about where I came from, why I’m here or how I should be living my life? Analytical research while important is by definition devoid of moral inquiry. Don’t get me wrong it should be but that also limits its ability to effectively analyze religion, philosphy, and artistry.

Becoming a Christian in my early teens was devastating to my self esteem. I felt like I was being told that I was never good enough. I needed to be more godly, I needed to love Jesus more, I needed to pray more, I needed to read the bible more. It seems like nothing was enough, because the church was always telling me what I was lacking and doing wrong. Because, according to them, if I had done all the things they instructed me to do correctly, my life would be so different and better than how it already was. (Which in retrospect was a wonderful and stable life anyway.)

my break with Catholicism happened because of my being a Lesbian, which also implies that I’m a woman. Both of those facets of my identity meant that I was less valued, but also considered an abomination as defined by the Papal Edicts. Who needs that? The last straw was the priest sex scandals. I can’t even see a catholic priest these days without having a surge of rage pass into me, and a desire to physically assault them. I’m angry that I was ejected so completely from a faith whose tenets were purported to be about love.

Why did you let the actions of Men separate you from God? Our churches and the people that make them up are all fallible humans. The history of all human institutions are filled with hypocrisy. I disagree with your assertion that “Christian Behavior” is the marker of God’s validity. As a matter of fact, the fact of everyone’s fallibility is an affirmation of the fallacy of working your way to God.

Great show, Tom.

Hi, Mr. Lodbell,

I can’t wait to read your book. From my recommendatin, my local library in Boca Raton, FL has it on order.

As an atheist of over 30 years, I’ve learned that the best way to become an atheist is too look closely at religion, as you did. For many, the way out is after reading the Bible, Koran, etc., yours was as a journalist.

The amazing Joseph McCabe has it right in the first part of the 20th Century.

Welcome to Mental Freedom,
jack

I lost my own Southern Baptist faith at age 12. After studying ALOT of different faiths, I was very VERY surprised to find Kali Ma (of hindu mythology) reaching out to me at age 20, because I really hadn’t studied that one at all. It’s like a love story.

We’ve been together every since. =)

To Diana
Listen to the message of love that Christ teaches, not the laws that the modern day Pharisee’s want to put upon you.

Adversity and tribulation that tests people’s faith. I would like to make a few comments is this regard, that are based on personal experience. Because of my clean lifestyle and blood type, I was solicited for a directed donation, for a baby having open heart surgery. Red Cross sends out a computer generated letter two weeks later that said I was HIV positive. My wife was in the divorce lawyer’s office 9am the next morning. I got a nasty divorce broke off in my a** and lost my family and all possessions because of this. I retested two months later (suggested protocol) and the result was, oops, looks like it was a false positive! 10 years later, I can’t sell or donate blood or plasma to this day, because of that f%*@ing test. Guess where I was sitting when I was solicited for the initial donation? In church!!!

Because of all of this I felt that prayer and God left me lacking . However, even if he gave up on me for a while, I’m not giving up on him and this is why.

The above described cluster*#@* wasn’t the only crappy thing that has happened to me. 30 years ago, my firstborn child died from SIDS. It took 14 years of hell, but he gave me an intelligent and acceptable reason for that happening, which I accepted pretty much immediately. His reason was so perfect, that I would not go back to change it if he gave me the power to do so. Because of the SIDS experience, I firmly believe that he’ll let me know WTF was behind the HIV BS.

Bill Lobdell, I didn’t give up on God and you should not either.

Christianity has lost it’s way. We in the church have traded salvation from sin for salvation from Hell. The angel told Joseph to name the child Jesus because He would save people from their sin. Jesus overcame death because He overcame sin! Christians who don’t overcome sin are not true Chritians and will not overcome death.

I am born again and unborn again at least 4 times a year! My questions are: Are Christianity and Atheism the only choices? Is there spirituality without “religion” for you? Did you spend any time looking into other spiritualities?

Good luck to you!

Just as I was listening a friend sent me a link to Sunday’s “More Atheists Shout It From the Rooftops” article ( http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/27/us/27atheist.html ). Seems like we might be reaching a turning point finally.

I spent 13 years in an abusive relationship. I left. Thereafter, I reveled in the first non-abusive relationship in my life. But as an evangelical Christian, my church said I had to leave my new partner and return to the abusive one because God had joined me to my first husband. This was the lightbulb-going-on moment. The fact that my own Bible reading supported their position fed it. I now consider myself a reluctant agnostic/athiest. Maybe there’s something out there that makes sense, but it sure isn’t the “god” of the Bible.

– anon (it would cause real trouble to reveal my name on the radio)

The last caller who said that here parents where atheist and that they abused her and then went into a this thing about God taking caring of her. The problem is being an atheist or religious has nothing to do with the horrible things that happened to he in childhood.

The think that some magical being in space is looking over you is a fantasy. It’s more about the psychology of denial then anything esle.

How much does he think that religion has inserted itself between man and Nature. I think of the comfort that native americans must gain by being so tied to nature and their role in the whole natural process of life and death, be it flora, fauna and man.

Chritianity destroyed the polytheistic cultures that worshipped nature. I agree with Bill that it’s fine to see oneself as part of the life/death cycle of nature. And nothing stops us from living in a moral way.

Tom & William:

There are many others of us out here that are struggling with faith. When human beings are able to think critically, it does become more difficult to maintain that ‘child-like’ faith. When we learn to think for ourselves it is more difficult to simply sit in the pew and ‘let the ideas be poured in’. Thank you for giving voice to this important discussion that some people (especially evangelicals)are just incapable of having.

It seems to me that our faith should have more to do with how we live together than where we will end up at the end of life. God is praised for the gift of life we have today. Early Israelite literature like Job and other books do not praise God because we get the reward of afterlife but even get upset with God who may act somewhat arbitrarily. God is about the first cause. God is not about parents taking care of our ego needs for permanent life in paradise. I think I pray for what I have today in thanksgiving and I hope for a longer life and many friends and loved ones to share it with in order to stay here as long as possible and a peaceful death. THH

I am a lifelong atheist, as much as one can be, and I find William’s story quite interesting. I am especially interested in his comment that there is no middle ground between angry atheists and Christians. I would say that there is a middle ground both in semantics and in humanity. The semantic middle ground would be agnosticism and the human middle ground would be people like me who are atheists but are not angry at religious people as a whole.
In response to the people that have said he questions his faith too much. I would simply say that if you are the kind of person who wants proof religion probably is not for you and that is fundamentally okay for anyone who chooses to leave the fold of faith.

As an atheist (since childhood) I have awe rather than faith. I have an appreciation for questions rather than the need for answers.
My continuing problem with many religious people is that they think those who don’t believe in God have no morality!

William’s premise that he should find better behavior in Christians than in Atheists is naive. We are _all_ sinners, Christian and Atheist.

William’s expectation that if there is a God this would be a perfect world _now_ is also naive. Just as we are, this world is a work in progress.

I’m wondering, as I listen, whether Mr. Lobdell’s diappointments are specifically with the Christian faith, instead of religion in general.

(Fwiw, I’m a syncretic theist who started life as a Theosophist.)

I’d like to respond to Mr. Lobdell’s comment that faith is like being in love with someone. He said something along the lines of “You either love someone or you don’t. You can’t make yourself love someone.” I would point out that making a marriage or other loving relationship work requires on-going work and committment. If all married couples gave up on their relationships when the initial joy of the honeymoon is over, no marriage would last. The same is true of faith. It requires on-going work and devotion to maintain.

I appreciate Mr. Lobdell story and find it challenging and enlightening. I believe doubt is not the opposite of faith but rather the opposite of doubt is naive. Your doubt is helping me connect to my faith deeper. I have found I need to study a global faith to combat my frustration with the North America strend of faith of all kinds. What is happening in India or Africa in the very informing and strengthen.
Doubting toward a depper faith.
Bruce

Why are doubt and faith mutually exclusive?

The author is talking about how not having that feeling of community as an atheist that the church provides. I disagree. I have very deep, loving ties to many in my community, and these are based on (instead of a church basement) things like the people I meet in my location, school system, volunteer activities, and virtual communities.

In fact, as a (current) agnostic, I feel so much moreso supported, happy and full of friends and families than I ever felt as a person in the thick of prayer groups, multiple services and Bible stdies.

In fact, since moving away from religion, I feel like a big part of my life was given back to me (what? free thought? my own decision-making? self-reliance? all of the above?) and I am, at age 31, the most fulfilled I’ve been in my short life.

Mr. Lodbell, you haven’t lost faith in God, because you can’t lose that which you never had. You simply lost your faith in people, which is a necessary loss in order to find a true faith in God. True faith is never lost; because you don’t have it, it has you.

To Tom’s questions about the importance of the caring community that churches so often provide: For many of us who do not have faith in a supreme being, Unitarian Universalist churches provide our caring community without the expectation that we profess belief. You don’t have to be a believer to find community!

Tom- you may have grown up with a church as your support system but it is certainly no the only option. I grew up with support from family friends, school and community groups. You ask what society would be like with out a church to support children- my answer is that it would be fine because you are talking about communities, which can exists anywhere in any form with any focus, not just religious ones.

To the caller who claimed that “Do unto others” is a Christian rule, if you read Joseph Campbell and study mythology and religions that are older than a mere 2000 years, you’ll find a lot of ideas that pre-date Christ. Ignorance of history and other religions doesn’t mean Christianity is the one true religion.

Is it important for beliefs to be based on a foundation of truth? If so, faith is a hard sell. If not, what is faith based on?
The books on popular atheism can be strident and angry because the writers can’t understand that logic plays no role in the formation of faith. This is extremely fustrating for those of us who believe in cause and effect.
What is there to gain from devoting one’s life to a fanciful fairy tale narrative? It would be silly if religion didn’t cause so much pain and misery.

Tom;

I have been an agnostic since I was 18 or so. Religious faith is not a necessary factor for the pursuit of happiness… I have been married to the same person for 20 years, who also gradually became an agnostic. We are extremely peaceful and happy. We help every person we can regardless of their religion since we do not favor one. We do a lot of charitable and volunteer work, because we believe that is the right way to live. Religion is NOT a necessary ingredient of a happy life. In fact, freedom from religion is very LIBERATING!

UU AND YOGA

I have two answers to Tom’s question about where people can turn for community and solace:
Unitarian Universalism, a community of people dedicated to thinking about faith and doing community service, and Yoga, which is NOT a religion.

I can’t believe that in all this discussion so far, UU hasn’t been mentioned.

And yoga classes are full of people looking for comfort in their lives, and with stories of people brought back from the brink by yoga.

The question was: Where do you go when you’re at the depths of life’s experiences?
As a life-long athiest, I have often wished there were a better answer than that you go to your friends and/or to others who, for example, share your illness,etc. When my brother was killed in an accident when he was 17 and I was 14, I wished I could believe in a god who had a good reason. But there has NEVER been any proof of that, and wishful thinking doesn’t cut it. My faith in God was totally removed when Dr. Tom Dooley died–he had been a selfless physician in Africa, and he died young. Why? Because God wanted it that way? It made no sense then (this was in the 1950s and I was very young) and it makes no sense now. God is for people who are not comfortable with saying “I don’t know” to questions of why and how–why people suffer, how the universe began, etc. Any rational thinker cannot justify God’s existence.

Keep exploring. You seem like a seeker, despite your disappointments. It took me 23 years of seeking to find Unity, which does not require faith, and most of the Unity churches are great fun.

Questions for the guest;

Do you believe there can ever be a true separation of Church and Stare in the USA?

Religion of all types can seem both a luxury and a necessity in our modern world. Do you think American and/or World views of the role of religion will ever go through an “evolutionary” stage whereby the day to day needs of people and our planet will supercede their spiritual requirements?

Could a plausible definition of atheism simply be that people rely on each other rather than a spiritual entity? Could this lead to a more accepting view all people and their beliefs to the point that no singular one is superior to another and that more attention will be paid to our planet and life here on earth?

Thank you.

On the one hand, I agree with William, and on the other, I don’t.

I am a Christian. I find it absurd that Christians pass off the responsibility for being morally and relationally transformed; for living lives that should reveal transcendence, a God at work in them.

But to define “faith” as being something based on wishful thinking or blind desperation is to do a great disservice to the message of the Bible. Christians make the same mistake. Christianity is not about achieving paradise after this life, but rather is about how the kingdom of God and will of God can be done here in and amongst us.

I am a Christian because in Jesus I see the most transcendent example of how to restore light and health to a dark and broken world. It is the way of selfless, sacrificial love and radical humility.

I disagree with the comments made about faith. Christian faith is not a “blind” faith, but rather a concept created by kirkegaard and is very much contrary to the Bible. In Hebrews there is a little word called evidence and we have enough of that. Perhaps the greatest piece of evidence is the existence of Jesus Christ. Incidentally, he claimed to be God but if he’s not, then he is a liar and should not at all be regarded as a great teacher. Interestingly, Jesus also said that even if someone came from the dead and said that He is the truth, no one would believe them. And that is true. We are a skeptic society and we will never accept spiritual matters via scientific proof. There’s a great place for science in Christianity but it’s not there to prove spiritual truths.

The question I have is without God, where did morality come from? All our current suffering is due to sin, and we can’t expect a God who is just to go against His nature to fix all the problems that are result of sin. Of course we want our sin forgiven, but so does that enemy of yours. If God just fixed all our problems, where would our choice be?

the fatal flaw of “faith” is that as soon as you question it you kill it. believing in things for which there is no empirical evidence is insanity. the institutionalization of this process into “religion” is the major failing of humanity. when people think they make progress. faith as a contest to see who will find “eternal bliss” is utterly stupid. “religious” people surround themselves with others who profess the same BS, which is nothing but pathetic clinging. Descartes gamble (that there is nothing to loose, so why not believe) is probably the most imbecilic, and ironic, affront to reason. christians are nice to others only because they are afraid of rotting in hell – atheists are nice because it’s helpful to everyone. not having “faith” doesn’t mean you know everything, it just means you will not substitute BS for fact and reason, and you don’t have to be fearful to be compassionate. religion is mental suicide. lose religion, regain the mind.

I am listening to this program and find myself a bit put off by Tom’s obvious religious zeal. He is usually a little more impartial.

Also, I certainly agree with Andrea. I mean …do people need religion to make them act morally?? The implication there is that, were it not for their religion holding back their impulses, these people would be acting immorrally. One doesn’t need religion to tell them that it is wrong to hurt another person or an animal! Knowing that is a human trait …not a godly one.

Outweighing the personal support that religion may provide to individuals is the damage that organized religion does in the public sphere, as exemplified by the Pope’s continuing opposition to contraception in a crowded world, and his outrageous and incomprehensible stance in relation to AIDS prevention.

Every religious believer is an atheist to every other faith. How can they all be true? What makes one true and all the others false.

As to the comfort of religion. Atheist face the truth of life (and we love life). People should grow-up.

Regardless of what people BELIEVE, this is no way speaks to TRUTH of the belief.

Unitarianism offers fellowship and some spiritual stuff for atheists, agnostics, the heathen, pagans, etc. Supposedly open to all faiths, the experience varies greatly from place to place and whether one’s experience is good is a crap-shoot. But this can be said of all “religious organizations”.

I wish to comment on the statements Mr. Lobdell made about looking for an empirical difference in actions [kindness, civility, & ???] between ?professed? atheists and ?professed? Christians:
being an atheist does not automatically mean that you are inherently a “BAD” person, that you will be ?negatively aggressive..?mean & nasty just because you do not fit the “Christian” profile or even if you actively profess a DISbelief in God or a Higher Power.
Conversely, just because someone “fits” the restrictive definition of a Christian that I heard from this audio program (a person who has ‘confessed’ JC as their personal savior) does NOT mean that they will, as a matter of course act in a “moral” or “selfless” way.

I think it would be great if we could break through the labeling and encounter each other as FELLOW HUMAN BEINGS.

Most religion is a tool for mental and spiritual enslavement. If it were otherwise it would teach self empowerment and cohesion among all humanity. Christianity teaches us that we are weak, that we are sinners, it divides men and woman all the way back to the apple in the garden of Eden. It tries to tell us that knowledge is the root of evil instead of the root of self empowerment. Faith is important to religion because it last tool of those who would oppress us. But it is a weak tool and so it is wielded wildly and desperately. The more faith is questioned the louder it is shouted an the more severe the punishments for it rejection. Let go of it and embrace truth and begin your life in earnest and and begin to achieve true spiritual satisfaction.

Thomas:

After an interesting series of events, I returned to the Catholic church after 35 years. Unfortunately, I found that the same ignorance of church history; understanding the role of various “fathers of the church” and political pressures in the shaping of Christianity; the subtle [and worse, ignorant] anti-Semitism, which is ascendant today; and, most distressing, the increasing repudiation of Vatican II, has disappointed me in the extreme.

Also, the egregious inability to confront systemic, venal, and evil within the church by hiding behind the “failed humans, not the Church” apologetics. I have made the judgment, based on intense reading of church history and biblical exegesis, that Jesus was, at heart, the leader of a communitarian movement whose early success was chiefly because of women. In the end, he was hijacked by subsequent generations of men, whose intent was not as pure of spirit. In fact, one of the chief arbiters of orthodoxy in the early church, Origen, felt that the only option for dealing with his sexual feelings was to castrate himself.

Is there a higher power? Yes, I believe that to be so. Are there exceptional people [who may have been avatars of the ineffable Deity] who radically changed the trajectory of humanity? Without a doubt. Can humans institutionalize these great people? Absolutely not.

Look at the record. It is appalling.

GP

I’m sorry that William has lost his faith/religion, but I’m confused as to why losing religion = losing spirituality. The reality is that humans are the interpreters of any religious text and/or belief so it’s really up to you what religion means to you.

I personally have no religious affiliation, but I read texts from a variety of religions/faiths and I take what resonates for me and leave the rest.

It seems like you’re getting really caught up in the words religion or religious and you need to think more about spirit or spirituality.

You should look into quantum physics, as well, if you really believe that there is no interconnectedness between humans and everything else in the world. Many quantum physicists and other types of scientists, specifically biologists, have come to some sort of spiritual beliefs through their study of sciences.

What a dull and boring show today. William Lobdell confuses Spirituality/Higher power and religion/Human beings

On further thought…

Mr. Lobdell’s tests of faith are a lot like the magical thinking of someone who thinks “If my spouse _truly_ loves me, he/she will just _know_ how to make me feel loved.”

A childish test.

He’s trying to understand a complex and subtle thing by reading the children’s version.

AS a woman, I really wonder how a religion in which God is a “Father”, and the Savior is “His” “Son”, can seem like anything more than a patriarchal conception, a projection of a uniquely powerful segment of the human population.

I grew up in a Catholic household. As an undergraduate majoring in physics, when I realized I didn’t need God to create the universe, I lost belief in God. In graduate school, still in physics, I came to believe in God because of an unshakable sense of a “who-ness” to the universe and the fact that the universe is so weird that God just might exist. This weirdness of the universe indicates that God has to be much weirder than any of our definitions of God, including “all knowing,” “all powerful”, “all loving”, “creator of the universe”, etc.. Thus I don’t look for evidence of God in anything and distrust any evidence people cite. The Buddhist express this when they say “If you meet the Buddha on the road, kill him” because any Buddha on the road has to be a false Buddha. The atheists I’ve read seem mostly to reject God for failing to match the Buddha/Jesus/God on the road that religions have constructed instead of rejecting the constructs that are much more about culture than God. I have written of my spiritual journey and views in a book called “The Sky is Not a Ceiling” published by Orbis books in 2007.

I am surprised at the description of atheism as devoid of community and love. In my experience, it’s the opposite. I have a great family life, wonderful friends, a purposeful job (as a psychiatry resident), a strong sense of social justice, and commitment to public service/political participation. My family is Jewish, but secular and atheist for generations, but I really enjoy the festivals, the traditions, the food, the music, etc.

I like the description that when you no longer heaven to fall back on, you have to live life fully and completely. This is a good description of my faith. Faith in life, acceptance of death, importance of loving, of working, and of helping make the world a better place for those who come after us.

In “Escape from Freedom” by Erich Fromm, there is a good description of the origin of the protestant view of life.

Angry atheists??? It’s sounds like the Christians are the angry ones.

Just reading the comments and hearing the show, it seems that the Christians are much more threatened by the idea that someone would question their views than atheists are.

I don’t think the author is expecting a perfect word, as Carl suggests. Carl says “We are all sinners” which is one of the many Cop-outs in religion. Whenever a serious inquiry is made as to the existance of God or why God allows certain things to happen we are confronted with “We are all born into sin” or “God’s will”, “God’s reasons are his own and they will be revealed to us in his time”… BUT when in comes to homosexuality or abortion these very same peple who on the one hand say that God’s reasons are a mystery will emphatically state that God abhores homosexuality!

Seems to me that the religious pick and choose the level and depth of their explanations. My ex-wife went to school to be an evangelical minister and they use to teach her phrases to blurt out that would make the congregation believe that she was speaking in tongues. They taught her generic “life stories” with “insert your name here”… pre-canned stories of hardship to strengthen the faith of those who might be questioning.

Religion really is a scam.

I feel humans have out grown the current religions. We have learned too much in the last 400 years that doesn’t mesh with the current religions. They appear to me too provincial.

I feel the time is ripe for a new faith or belief or philosphy that encompasis all that we know right now and is open to allow new information to be added.

I am personnally athiest.

Here are some facts.
We live on a planet called Earth
We live in a solar system that revolves around the Sun
The Sun is a Star.
It resides in the Milky Way Galaxy with 100,000,000,000 other Stars.
The Milky Way Galaxay is one of 100,000,000,000.
The Age of the Universe is 13.5 Billion years old.

I have one question.

Do you really think this is all about us?

What arrogance. What self centerness. What ignorance.

Tim

Faith and a relationship with God requires humility. Live a humble life. Every bit of this conversation has been “whats in it for me?” Its nearly impossible to have faith in something when you constantly compare it to a cost-benefit analysis. Scripture tells us we will not find God with our minds, but with our hearts.

Atheism is not the only alternative to deism. Pantheists believe that god and the universe are synonymous. There is no scientific need for a beginning of the universe – in fact, the law of conservation of energy suggests that it did not have a beginning but has always existed and always will. There may never have been a “creation” and therefore no creator. There is a rational and natural explanation for everything observed – we don’t know and may never know what many of those explanations are but they exist. There are no supernatural causes of anything. It is up to us to keep looking for the truth rather than accept the easy supernatural answers.

Many may argue that pantheism is not a religion but I disagree – it is the basic foundation of all religions since prehistoric times.

I think may people who think of themselves as atheists are more like pantheists.

I am a christian on a slow path out. A major turning point came from one of your other shows about sex abuse and trafficking in Burma. I thought to myself about 1 Thessalonians 1:6-9 about Jesus bringing to death anyone who doesn’t know him. How can these people know him, those who from one are of a completely different faith than Christianity? Would they be attracted to God and more specifically a Christian god who says they will die if they don’t know and have faith in him? I cannot justify it.

This is an age where subatomic particles are mathematically explained by parallel universes. If you are truly scientific about it, you would say that you have absolutely no idea whether there is or is not a God or an afterlife.

Anything else is simply a belief, including atheism, an incredibly arrogant belief.

-Paul

Mr. Lodell hasn’t discussed other religions in this conversation. I believe that God is so powerful that he has been able to come to different people in different parts of the world in different ways. There is a ton of similarities between Buddha and Jesus as well as similar flood stories in the Bible and in Aztec/Inca/Maya religion (I forgot which one specifically) and there is historical evidence that both Jesus and Buddha walked on this earth. If Mr. Lodell is burned out by organized religion I can understand that (I was raised Catholic and now go to the Episcopalian church) but I think he has limited his search to Christianity.

I don’t accept the judeo-christian idea largely because it must always be taught and brought to us by man. Why isn’t it inate? Why must we be preached and taught about a God that made us all? Without teaching/indoctrination… we can’t get it.???

I have shared Williams disappointment in people leading the church. I’m not someone who spends much time thinking about the Devil, the term isn’t really all that comfortable for me yet, but when I think about the dark force that is his lair I think: well it only makes sense that if the dark forces wanted to WIN they would attack the church first, and
how do you do that? through humans, who are the servants of the church.

Tim Keller, a very frank and compelling Christian preacher in New York wrote a line that really helped me when in William’s state of sadness over the foiables of religious people. IN his recent book The Reason For God, Keller wrote this sentence:

“The church is not a museum for saints. It is a hospital for sinners.” That has really helped me keep my faith in the Lord, while seeing, with clear eyes, the problems we humans bring with us. This idea, supported by scripure in a million ways, also allows for me giving to the church and my community without being, myself, perfect.

So many “religious” callers mention that they “found god” when they hit some kind of personal rock bottom. This really reinforces the idea that religion is a crutch, which I agree with. And as other “doubters” have mentioned, a crutch is nice to have when your leg is sprained, but what good is it if it’s a fairy tale? (Sorry, that is a bad analogy!)

Have a look at “Christianity for the nonreligious” by Spong.

I think there will be a growing number of Christian atheists. Atheist
because they have lost the theistic vision of some supernatural being out
there. God is something else. The core of the scripture is the Sermon on
the Mount and Jesus life is an example of those words.

Regarding “losing religion”, I never really had faith per se. I have always questioned the beliefs of others, and now consider myself a humanist; I can transcend myself without supernatural intervention. Belief in a supernatural being defies reason, because there is no proof. Faith is the antithesis of reason.

To paraphrase R.A.Heinlein, I would rather live in the cold light of reason rather than the comfortable warm darkness of faith.

For the record, I am married to a person of enormous faith and we have great discussions with open mind on both parts, both of us questioning and wondering. It does not have to be about winning, losing, converting, etc.

A loving father? Why not a loving mother?

Indoctrinating children with religion is a form of child abuse. Let them wait until the age of reason, as “Michael” said, and you’ll be laughed out of the room with religious mumbo-jumbo.

Mr Lobdell’s point about finding “man’s” touch on all religions as a problem could point out to him that his search for the “perfect father’s love” is yet another imposition of a human definition to how religion has been crafted. Why is God identified as a father? Because that’s what humans can identify with and understand. There really isn’t any other reason. Perhaps Lobdell can find a way to identify the essence of a god power that isn’t wrapped up in a human persona replete with a father’s traditional rewards and punishments.

OK, now I’m an angry Unitarian Universalist! :^)

Just so others of you know, UU is not like the author describes, but is a very spiritual place, but we just don’t rely on God as an explanation for everything, good and bad.

I encourage people who are intrigued by this book to try going to a UU service.

I was raised Catholic and went to my first UU service because I wanted to see Frank Lloyd Wright’s Unitarian Temple in Oak Park, IL.

I was BLOWN AWAY by the service: they talked about the anniversary of Roe v. Wade; they mentioned extending benefits to same sex partners; and at the end of the service, the lobby was full of people at tables who could help you to easily put your values into action, through donating time, money or a signature.

This was such a refreshing change from any Catholic service I’d ever attended.

UU offers a community of people who aren’t afraid to talk about questions of faith. It’s a delight.

I’m glad Mr Lobdell is finding some peace in Atheism. There’s absolutely nothing wrong with that. And frankly I don’t understand why Christians would be upset that a person can find happiness and fulfillment in something other than organized religion.
For me, I’ve had a fantastic relationship with God/Universe/AllThatIs for decades now. And yes it does get challenging at times and I don’t put as much energy into it as I ought, therefore getting things back out of it. Every relationship needs to be nurtured yes?
And oddly enough I’ve never been part of any organized religion! Amazing isn’t it. Religion and/or man does not OWN God.
Perhaps we put too much of our faith in ‘church’. Which is just an organization. And every organization needs to evolve and change with its members. The Catholic Church has done very poorly at this and I think suffered because of it. And the binding rules by which Christians define being ‘christian’ is also harmful to the relationships people are seeking with God.

Let people be spiritual for goodness sakes. Religion is for man, not God.

Does anyone know where to find more info on the study that was described that indicated that intercessional prayer negatively impacted health?

I am always fascinated when people tell me that they KNOW God and therefore can tell me all about HIM and how HE wants me to act. Do you really have a relationship with an entity that is unknowable and powerfull beyond human understanding?
I respect peoples spirituality as I have my own, but organized religion, which is largely what is at issue here, is quite ridiculous when people claim to know the thoughts and feelings of a power that is inconceivable.

I’d like to speak up for the quiet agnostics. I also lost faith, but I do not self-identify as an athiest. This is because I am open to the possibility of a higher power in the universe, though I do not believe in the specific gods of any organized religion.

I wonder if Mr. Lodbell has a reason for not self-identifying as agnostic as opposed to athiest, since he seems to share a general agnotic viewpoint?

hi, can you tell me what song was playing at the end of the second half of on-point today (wednesday, April 29)
thanks

Faith is hope. Our hope is that the human community acting in a transcendent relationship to a higher power, loving one another into growing more perfect in and over time. We are not saved by a person who dies for us so much as we are saved by the way we treat each other and as we look around the world today what we see is a very powerful force driving wedges between people. What we need is the courage to reach out in love beyond boundaries that are human creations and realize that our source in life made us for one another not to build our barns and fill them for ourselves but to build our barns to share what we have with one another. Such a life is a just faith worth living, otherwise we risk living no more than a fantasy that satisfies only our ego needs to have what we have now and for ever more. That is pure fantasy and ungodly. THH

The idea that one can “lose one’s faith” strikes me odd. One can lose one’s church. Perhaps I was born hard-headed enough to view heaven as a political crutch by which someone (the Holy Roman Empire) kept people in line. Perhaps I learned about Martin Luther and his opinion of the selling of indulgences to see economic as well as political factors.
To me, being brought up Congregational was familial, and where I feel my family of origin has to advance into the new century, so does the church that feels like the one that shaped my youth. I don’t understand people who see belief as scientific; it points at truths of another order.
People who speak of conversions and ecstatic salvations are subject to the “falling out of love” syndrome that Lobdell refers to. He feels he’s been hoodwinked by an illusion. If you start by saying this is the lens by which that which is beyond understanding is sort of claimed, then the real purpose of religion begins to surface. Not exclusivity or the privilege of an advantage at heaven’s door, but the responsibilities of being human. How to do that? I do ask.

I take exception to Mr. Lobdell’s dismissal of Unitarian Universalism as being like non-alcoholic beer. “What’s the point?” he asks. A better analogy might be that whereas most religions serve up a specific type of beer and label it as “the truth,” UUs are free to sample a wide variety of beers to seek, sample, and perhaps find the flavors that most appeal to them.

My UU congregation is busy microbrewery of beliefs, embracing atheists, agnostics, believers, doubters, Buddhists, Christians, Jews, and others who enjoy wrestling with spiritual and ethical questions, engaging in social action, and forming an intentional community based on tolerance and mutual respect and support. Such communities may not be to Mr. Lobdell’s liking, but they play an important role in an era when many people have lost their childhood beliefs but not the urge to explore spiritual questions in community.

I have been a Atheist since I was 18 after exploring biology, anthropology and the universe. I don’t care if anyone follows me but most God lovers tend to want to change me or my children. My daughter is now exploring religion to my disappointment (don’t tell her).
The universe is so huge and predictable now. There is no reason to feel that we believe some supernatural being is pushing us trough hard times it is our own resolve to make life better.
I am now 47 years old. I have made it trough 29 years of disrespect and contempt from God lovers. They are the majority and mating with them have cost me money and years that I will never get back.
Mr. Lobdell it may be a good idea to just go along with them…. NOT!
May peace & love be with you and all you love.
Love
Doug

Growing up my mother had a sign on the kitchen wall that read ‘Pray to God, but row for shore’

This illustrates the biggest thing I see that separates atheists from Christians and other religions. The relinquishing of our own responsibility for our actions is in my mind the largest source of what people tend to call ‘Evil’

It is probably shocking to Christians to read about an atheist who reads the Bible. I’ve read the the teachings of Jesus in the Bible, and I live by a lot of those same rules.

What is shocking to me is how many Christians do not seem to read the Bible. What I see when I look out is so many people who profess to be Christians who either don’t know or don’t follow those teachings.

It feels good to relinquish responsibility to anyone, it is a relief. I think, though, that it is an affront against what Jesus stood for to ‘let go and let god’ because Jesus taught to behave according to God’s rule of moral conduct. People seem to take the ‘let go and let god’ sentiment to mean relax and stop examining your situation to make the best decisions, to let God sort it out.

I am not angry at God or Jesus. I think there is great wisdom to be found in the Bible. I am, however, rather disappointed in those that profess to follow the Bible who do not know it or follow the teachings in their daily lives by living them.

If there is a judgement day, when it comes down to it, I wonder what will become of those who praised Jesus and God, but did not listen to them and live according to their rules.

william, I tuned in late but I think that you are doing well in questioning everything. I think about the topic of “faith” nearly every day of my life– although usually I don’t use that word.
I was born into a typical midwestern christian/catholic family and raised in the church. William mentions that “loving father-image of god” that we are all familiar with. As adults we learn the imperfections of our own parents that had nurtured us when we were young. That doesn’t mean they lied to us– since they are imperfect! I prefer that my grown sons question my way of thinking and doing in the world now. My ground of being has not changed even though I am not attending a church…
God is in the absolute realm — what/who we cannot name. When we name it, or when we believe we’ve got it named — I think (probably like William) that we are limiting something that is limitless. And so we plod along. I’ve tried naming where I am in the “faith” realm. And if or when I do that– I think a death of spirit occurs.

“Pray to God, but row for shore” illustrates perfectly the Cop-out I talked of previously. If you pray and somehow are magically transported to the shore then it is obvioulsy “God at work” HOWEVER that is likely not to happen. So pray to God and row like the dickens for teh shore. When you get their it was obviously “God giving you the strength to reach it”. I prefer teh phrase “Row for shore”. You are no more or less likley to get to shore if you pray or not, or believe in God or not.

“Pray to God, but row for shore” is the relious equivelent of hedging your bets at the Superbowl. Bet on both teams, and you don’t loose anything.

The odd thing is that the answers most seek are out there but the field surveyed for those answers is too myopic. For instance, William makes specific reference to the philosophical problem of evil, that a truly benevolent and omnipotnent God would rid the world of things which cannot in any way be considered good. Several religious thinkers have taken a stab at answering this question but most seem to appeal merely to that which is considered mainstream Christian thought as opposed to perhaps less orthodox options. For instance Mormons (Latter-day Saints) have provided a very convincing answer to the issue of the problem of evil. Of course, almost every faith seems to have skeletons in their closet which may lead to one rejecting that given faith as an option.

Tom!

I LOVE your brilliant earnestness, but the REASON you survived the church basements is because you were in the basement and not in the sanctuary with the adults and because you WERE considered “ONE WITH THEM”. IF your Jewish best friend had gone to visit your church before you went to visit his synagogue the next week (my friends and I exchanged houses of worship in Eighth Grade), you would have heard from the pulpit, “And the Jews killed Jesus” said with a “victim’s glee” that was chillingly punitive to the Jews and said with incendiary tone! (I heard this 1994-6, in different Christian denominations). IF you had been pre-pubescent and didn’t know yet that you would be gay one day, you would have heard “homosexuality is an ABomination!” (I heard that in 2003).

IF this were several centuries earlier, the spiritually-minded Native Americans and African Americans in your midst would have been told they were savages by the Christians; possibly not even capable of being within God’s fold. Did the Christians want to “benevolently” SAVE these “lesser” peoples? No!, because the haughty Anglicans realized that IF they Christianized the indigenous peoples and the slaves that they owned, that they would have to give them respect and/or freedom because a Christian could not enslave a Christian!!! I totally object to the one caller’s viewpoint wherein he said that Christian values spread out to others — the Christians were too arrogant to see that other cultures already held within their own culture the SAME loving values as Christianity espouses — the ideas were already THERE, and often practiced with less hypocrisy!!! The Native Americans did not fight because they were heathens, but because the Christian Europeans were intruding on Native common land and/or were breaking treaties about that land that the “unChristian” Indians took at their word!!!!

And, farther South, inside colonialism, but outside the future USA, don’t discuss Mayan human sacrifice without mentioning the Papal and Spanish Inquisitions.

I unburied my parents because of the prejudiced nature of my brother’s church, a regular Protestant denomination; a church he LOVED so dearly, especially after a catastrophic accident that caused his quadriplegia. Just getting to his church was an ordeal with his injury, yet he did so almost every Sunday for 15 years. Yet, at his death, his church betrayed him with just one word, proclaimed from the pulpit, in front of hundreds of families: “abomination!”

Tom, go to churches other than your own, and where you know no one, to find out what is going on in the world of “religion”. I am now back in my original religion, before Sunday School (age 6), that I never got rid of anyway: the world of nature. I am, by my earliest experiences, an animist, and VERY happy in my religion. I WOULD very much like to have the fellowship of a church; I even YEARN for it, but when I went looking for it earnestly and flexibly, I found the things I mentioned above. Nature certainly has an angry nature as well as a benevolent nature, but nature is NOT a hypocrit, and nature does not seek to exclude based on some man-made hierarchy!

Just another point, we were founded by slave-owning hypocrits, but they did NOT found the United States to be a “Christian nation”. We are worried about the Taliban? We should be extremely worried that far too many people believe that our Constitution founded a “Christian nation”! Thanks!

What a fascinating discussion.

I feel a lot like Mr. Lobdell. I was raised Catholic, was very religious as a young adult and very involved in the church. Catholic Social Teaching was very appealing to me and I was really into the social outreach part: helping the poor, feeding the hungry, sheltering the homeless, reaching out to the outcast. However, I found that most in the church have gotten away from this when they couldn’t give up the church hall for the homeless on BINGO night. I became more disillusioned when I found out that a previous priest had molested most of the boys in my age group resulting in one suicide, our current priest was embezzling money from the collection basket, and the Deacon was caught with a male prostitute. I’ve also been turned off by the continuing patriarchal belief that women are unsuitable to be leaders in the church, when the male leaders are doing an abysmal job.

But aside from being disillusioned with the leaders, I also have found I no longer believe in the mystical part of Christianity-the resurrection-which seems to be the core part of the faith. I’m not comfortable calling myself Atheist but feel like I may be…still confused at this point.

Beth

I’m reminded of what Gandhi said to a Christian friend of his (paraphrasing): “I like your Christ but not your Christians. These Christians do not act anything like Christ.”

Most of the comments here seem to be made in the context of Judeo-Christian religion and its concept of God. Let’s not extend this to all religions, some of which do not have the same framework as Abrahamic religions do (One jealous God, certain commandments that everyone has to accept as gospel truth and follow, a priest who is the middleman between you and God) and some like Buddhism which don’t care for God and are atheist/agnostic and the focus is on moral/ethical behavior rather than a label.

I will listen to William Lobdell’s personal experience as well as a born-again Christian whose faith gave him the confidence to kick his alcoholism. Both experiences are valid, but the problem comes when one tries to force others to conform to one’s own experience instead of accepting other person’s experience as valid, and this causes friction (‘only Christians/religionists can be moral’ and the other side of the coin being ‘you don’t need religion to be moral’ – the commonality between both being ‘my way is superior to yours, or my way is the only way for all’). Religion/spirituality (or lack of it) is best left as a private affair, and a laissez-faire at that.

Whatever works for people, and it’s all part of one’s journey of self-awareness and growing wisdom. After all, MLK and Desmond Tutu were/are quite religious and their faith definitely helped them achieve their goals.

Nate, I think you missed the point of my comment.

The point is that there’s nothing wrong with belief in God. But belief alone will not take you anywhere. In order to make it you must take control of your own life and row for shore.

What you choose to believe when you get there is your own business.

If you relinquish control, drop the oars, and simply ‘Pray to God’ you are at the mercy of the currents, whatever their cause. As I look around it’s hard not to see where that type of thinking has led us. That is unless you close your eyes and practice ‘blind’ faith. Again, not something that Jesus taught.

Jesus taught to open your eyes, to take action. The thieves are in the temple and most of the Christians I have met would respond somewhere between “It’s God’s will” and “I’ll take one.”

Why is it that an I, a self-professed Atheist, can see this as plain as day, but those who profess to be followers of Jesus’ teachings can not?

Hello William:

I am one of His disciples. I’m happy to hear that you have lost your religion and your faith. Now that you have walked away from that which is not of God, allow God to show you His truths, concerning the things of this world! His Truth would have told you that you would run into wolves and even men, after His own heart would sin! You surrendered unto Jesus Will, but allow man to define the substance of the things you hoped for in your new walk. The evidence of the things that you had not yet seen in the religion that grabbed you, showed itself to be unjust, a liar, a destroyer of children’s innocence. Yep, I’m glad that you got rid of that religion. It was not of God! Now that you have gotten rid of that evil, be careful that you did not bring any of those spirits out with you and start manifesting darkness in a different way. The Lord maybe using you to expose the darkness within that religion, but be careful and choose your words wisely.

You can tell a tree, by its fruit! Are you going to remain in rocky soil, or allow the Holy Spirit to lead and guide you over to fertile soil? The world will pay you a lot of money, to persecute Jesus and His disciples, but remember what does it profit a man to gain the world, but lose his soul?

God is not to be mocked, so as a man sow, shall he reap.

Jay, are you an atheist?
Like William, you speak in the radical way that I would assume Jesus spoke in his day. Weren’t the Jewish clerics put off by his manner of questioning? What I’m asking is don’t you think that rather than a “self-proclaimed atheist”– you may just actually be an activist that has no desire to preach or evangelize?

Having heard William Lobdell’s story from various news venues over the past year, I am struck by his genuineness, openness and sense of “peace” with doubt. His journey is quite interesting and prompts me to reflect upon the ancient Jewish spiritual roots, which can be accessed in the wisdom literature of the Old Testament. Unfortunately, various kinds of “Christians” dismiss what I have come to recognize as normative in this literature and further conveyed in the radical life and teaching of Jesus.

Severely lacking in practice and the spiritual vocabulary of many American Christian churches is this normative and valuable experience of doubt. There are clearly large questions that revolve around an active formation of faith, and they can present themselves in complex periods of disorientation, dislocation, and a deep sense of abandonment. Active doubt, such as portrayed in the life of the Qohelet in Ecclesiastes, many Psalms, Job, and the life of Jesus remind us that life can naturally move from periods of orientation into profound and long-standing periods of disorientation. While many American Christians write off experiences of doubt as “lacking faith”, my own journey has allowed me to see doubt as a path to the formation of faith and coming to terms with the hidden-ness, illusiveness, and darkness surrounding concepts of God, the large questions and perplexing experiences of suffering and evil in the world. (I am grateful for the works of Paul Ricoeur and Walter Brueggemann on this topic.)

The ancient Jewish tradition offers some almost lost practices which can be quite redeeming at best or at least able to help move individuals and communities into some sense of being re-oriented. For example, there is the practice of lament and complaint in the literature mentioned above. In my many years of religious experiences (predominately Christian), it has only been recently that I have met a religious community comfortable with practicing lament and complaint within their corporate lives. I am learning that while doubt is normative in human experience, practices such as lament and doubt can assist us in moving into some surprising places: places where we are more comfortable, imaginative, and at peace with the unknown and life as it is.

“For God so loved the world that whosoever believes in Him might not perish, but have everlasting life.” Thank God for John 3:16. Believe it or not, God still loves Mr. Lobdell with an everlasting love and longs to become His father. Just as a person cannot become “unborn”, physically, neither can Mr. Lobdell become “unborn”, spiritually; eternal security means just what it says. Thus, if he were ever truly repentant and born again spiritually, like it or not, he is still a child of God, though wandering afar and breaking the heart of his Father, much like a wayward child. If Mr. Lobdell is going to base his Christianity on the actions of others, I suggest he choose Billy Graham or his son, Franklin, or thusands of other Christians who trust and believe in the one and true God. Christians are not, and never have been, perfect: just forgiven. I recommend the writings of C. S. Lewis or Lee Strobel. Both present infallible arguments for the faith. Our God is not a person who must adhere to our “want” list. The Garden of Eden messed each of us up, and the blood of Jesus Christ is the only payment for fallen man.

To do the Scripture justice, I must re-submit John 3:16 as I inadvertently omitted an important part of that verse. Correctly stated, it is:
For God so loved the world that He gave his only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.”

Mr. Lobdell,

I understand and appreciate your comments about the importance of doubt as part of the experience of faith. I have been a doubting Christian for 50 years. That faith and doubt has helped me grow, be healed, (acute myelogenous leukemia 17 years ago) and to grow in my experience of faith. I had to resist my brother’s insistence that I was sick because I didn’t have enough faith. I know about the pressure you can feel that you’re supposed to get well because you believe. They forget that all the people Jesus healed eventually died. So it will be for each of us.

After hearing your interview (and I will read your book) I wondered if you are aware of the Franciscan theological perspective that is part of the Catholic Church. I am not a Catholic but have found that this theology makes sense in ways that may connect for you as well. (The dominant Catholic theology has been Dominican and, unfortunately, we Protestants swallowed it whole when we left Catholicism.)

To connect with this I recommend the new book by Father Richard Rohr, “Things HIdden”. Briefly Franciscan theology sees Christ not as a necessary substitution for us to an angry, judgmental God but as a gift to us to reveal the essence of life and how we’re called to live it. The gift of Christ comes from a fully loving, gracious God who calls us to trust through the experience of life.

Suffering and pain are part of the human experience and we can’t avoid it or get away from it. In addition, we are the judges to be dealt with not God. We are the ones who create hell for ourselves and one another not God.

God is loving and present but not to get us out of the pain. We are here to grow and choose to love one another in the midst of it. Our faith is a faith that this whole process of life is to be enjoyed and we’re to learn to love one another through it. Resurrection does occur and we can trust in it and the new creatures we become will have been developed through the process of this life.

Look all around you and discover the beauty of life and enjoy it NOW. You will see death and resurrection all around you. Look at a flower and its beauty but also it’s death and the development of a seed that carries that life further into developing new life.

What Christ’s resurrection reveals is that our “true self”,(who we really are under all the false selves we’ve all created to survive in this world) continues beyond death. Jesus was still Jesus after death. You will continue to be you beyond death. In the meantime relax and enjoy the life you’ve been blessed with and trust the Spirit within you to help you grow in your ability to love others and help them enjoy the life they’ve been given. Also, allow the Spirit within to guide you in your call to love the oppressed, the poor, the imprisoned and the ill and suffering.

I suspect that you, like me until recently, may not know that there is an entire part of Christianity that has remained alive even as the Christian religion became more Pharisee-like than the Pharisees. The alive faith starts from our experience and leads us to our theology not the other way around.

I’m a therapist and I know this grace-filled theology changes behaviors. Behavior changes not by people setting out to change but by receiving love from others and from their Creator. Receiving this grace results in a cleansing, healing within that changes behavior without the person “trying” to change. I’ve seen it happen over and over for 30 years so I trust it even though it hasn’t been scientifically proven.

Scientific research will never reveal this change because this faith is almost never practiced by enough people to test. Recent neuroscience, however, is opening the doors to a deeper understanding of how the spiritual process works and how people can be transformed. I suspect that sometime in the 21st century some of the “proof” you’ve been looking for may actually emerge.

I suggest that you are right on the verge of discovering something new and beautiful. Just recognizing that a Creator has created the life you’re enjoying and can be trusted even through the suffering and pain is transforming.

The questions you were asked about what we now do with the need all people have for love, support and caring without institutions like the church are legitimate. That’s who the church is to be and we’ve not done it very well at all.
As the church, we are called to love one another and love our Creator. I suggest you don’t stop doubting but pursue faith a little further. There’s still good news ahead.

Ken Schmidt

P.S. I’m glad you wrote your book. It is needed.

It is amazing to me that after centuries of science and rational thinking that people can still believe in angels and beings with super posers that live somewhere in space.
Superstitions do die hard.

Having a spiritual ideal is not the same as believing on God or Jesus.

Buddhism seems to me to be the most rational of religions however it too is full of superstitions, but there is a whole side of it that makes a lot sense, like working through problems to gain strength and remaining centered.

My biggest problem with any religious orthodoxy is there does not seem to be any room for debate or discussion.

As one who struggled with finding and losing faith in God & myself, I’m grateful for Mr. Lobdell’s book publication. I’ve had to resort to the secular medical establishment to help me deal with my loss of faith…and with mixed results. My hope is that each one of us can find the faith & hope necessary to make the planet a better one for as many folks as possible. But with numbers from the “World Health Organization (WHO) a Global Burden of Disease study (WHO, 2001), depression was ranked 4th in 2000 and it is estimated that depression will rise to a number 2 ranking by 2020. Considering global trends, one can assume that by the year 2050 depression might even be ranked number 1.” We need to wake up to realities and in our awakenings maybe we can find an undercurrent of peace, enough to allow for joy. Again, grateful for the book. Will have to get if from the library however, as I’m “between jobs.”

A belief in a supernatural being is not needed in a Unitarian Universalist(UU)congregation. What matters is how we treat one another and how we care for this planet we all call home. While some UUs find the concept of god/goddess/the great mystery helpful many others do not.
Where ever you are on your spiritual journey you are welcome in a UU congregation. We ask you to help make the world a better place and in turn we offer you a spiritual home where intelect is respected.
Check us out at UUA.org!

in peace,

My biggest problem with any religious orthodoxy is there does not seem to be any room for debate or discussion.

jeffe, um, doesn’t the very definition of ‘orthodoxy’ imply that it’s fixed? So there’s not much to debate or discuss – at least when it comes to the conclusions and accepted “truths”.

And that’s not just true of religions, but all ideologies too.

from the nytimes article ert linked to, an excerpt of a comment by a Polish man:

“In short, in Europe: 1. Your religious views are considered your private matter not to be nosed about; 2. It is considered simply normal to be doubting, agnostic, atheist or deeply religious.”

this closeted agnostic says hallelujah! to any sign that my country is moving towards this saner, more tolerant, more inclusive, more secular view.

So millard, you are in agreement w/ jeffe that there is no room for debate and discussion in orthodox religions.
I agree with that– and I agree with Jeffe that buddhism makes a lot of sense.
This points out a real contrast between orthodox religion and the philosophy of buddhism. Interesting.

It never ceases to amaze me how people go on and on, on what they feel, and believe to be the “right” way. Peace that passes All understanding is the peace of our universe’s cycles of energy. Man has consistently twisted this power for selfish gain throughout the centuries. This is the main Concept of God that is an offering of humility to our Massive universe. We have no control over anything. This is what freaks our tiny brains out. God as the universe manifested through a man “Jesus” is the origin of being “Born again”. To humble yourself to the unknown, and give thanks to our comic wavelength of thoughts. No one has control.

Congrats, Mr Lobdell on your atheist awakening!

I’ve been atheist for my whole life, as have both of my parents and most of my extended family. I’m happy, moral, and draw endless wonder and amazement from the natural world.

It’s alternately curious and disheartening that so many people still believe in superstition and magic. But that’s changing; all over the developed world, more and more people are giving up religion. Hooray!

Great Show!

I am a life long atheist, and I have never understood why people associate “faith” or religious fervor with morality. There are logical reasons to believe faith and morality are antithetical to one another. I never doubted that Cardinal Law had a deep faith, but it did not prevent him from aiding and abetting in priests’ sexual abuse of children. I do not doubt that the men that flew the planes in the New York World Trade towers perceived themselves as very devout, but they are ruthless, merciless, horrible men.

Organized religion in ANY faith empowers human fallibility with divine authority that is not to be questioned; to question the authority would be to doubt your God. This kind of unquestioned authority will inevitably be abused sooner or later.

I believe there is an inherent morality in Atheism that comes from its accountability. No god will save the planet, so we MUST act to do it. God will not provide for starving children we must feed them. There is no divine forgiveness, so do NOT hurt people. Take care of people now and love them now, because there is no after-life. Atheism is more loving for the people who are here now, and for the planet that will be here for the ones in the future.

If you need an imaginary friend to tell you act compassionately and the threat of hell to compel you to do what is right, then what kind of person are you really?

Thanks, Debbie.
At last I know what atheism is.

Christians in need of a cure READ HISTORY, a good start would be

“The Closing of the Western Mind”
by Charles Freeman

To Lorelei, the Bible condems homosexuality in very clear terminology.

Today’s show was very saddening to me. The guest picked the worst place to start his journey of Christian faith, a “seeker sensitive” mega church and chose in succession the best two places to kill it off, the Presbyterian and Catholic churches.

My only advice to him is to avoid using what seem to be standard Atheist arguments, among those, “no evidence of efficacy of intercessory prayer” and “Christians are no better than anyone else”, to state his case. To me, they undermine the veracity of his story and just make him sound like one of the carbon copy Atheist masses. I have participated in discussions with Atheists for over a decade in various settings, yet these arguments stay the same. I am glad that he feels that he has found freedom of thought, but apparently, in doing so, it seems that he’s just adopted a differently codified belief system, one with mantras, chants and liturgies as well.

Finally, Mr. Ashbrook, today was the first that I’d heard that you ever had any sort of belief system at any point in the past. On reflection, the relish with which you criticize Christianity on a regular basis speaks of some pretty deep hurt from your experience. Maybe you and today’s guest can compare notes on a more regular basis, but I’d also encourage both of you to reconsider your paths through Christianity and to maybe consider whether it was God you were placing your faith in or man.

as a seminary student at a reputable “conservative” seminary, i appreciate your candid stance. very fair. i also resonate with your comments about doubt. it is something that we, as the christian church, need to embrace more. i think we embrace modern philosophy too much and need to take our humanity a bit more seriously. your questions and doubt are worth talking about and listening to. thank you.

Religious people seem to get very defensive if you question any part of the the structure of their religion. At some point in the “discussion/arugment” you get the feeling like they are trying to convince THEMSELVES of their own point as much as they are trying to convince you.

Also…the minute money gets into the religion picture everything goes out the window as far as I’m concerned.
the whole idea is to not value money…but it seems most religions wouldn’t survive without it. that ought to be the litmus test right there.
jesus was broke right?
Aren’t they supposed to be like Jesus?
r

I didn’t listen to the entire show but some of the things that the guest said made me question if he really is an atheist. When describing an explanation for why a young child would die of a disease he said something along the lines of “that is just nature.” It seems like he has a belief in some sort of a higher power or order and called it “nature”. Could you then carry that belief further and associate “Nature” with “God” although not necessarily the traditional idea of “God” described in the Bible or elsewhere.

One comment concerning the “sexual scandals” of Catholic priests. Remember that almost ALL of these scandals originate in the US. Does this say something about the nature of Catholic priests or the nature of this country?

Mr. Lobdell mentioned that the one faucet missing from his ideology is a kind of community connection that is normal in churches. Isn’t this a MAJOR point of faith/God/church? If this country practiced more connection to community would the sexual scandals exist?

Monica from Vermont:

Since you ask, I call myself an atheist because it’s a word that most people understand that gets close to how I define my spiritual belief.

It’s not entirely correct, though, because I do not disbelieve in some higher power. I do not, however, believe in the grandfather god that is represented in Christian literature.

What I believe is that there are things in the world that can not be explained (yet) through science (or religion for that matter). I believe in the infinite complexity of our universe and I believe that in comparison we are extremely small.

To say that we understand the force behind the universe, or the reason it is here, whether that answer is explained by science or religion, I feel, is extremely arrogant and presumptuous. It’s much larger than us and it only serves our ego to pretend the answer will fit into our comparitively miniscule brain.

All that said, I look for the tools and information to help me make sense of the complexity I face on a daily basis. I understand that where we are in our knowledge is only possible by the generations of life-long work that have come before. I am practical in the sense that I think it is important to study those who have faced this same complexity in their lives, have studied it and come to conclusions.

Jesus taught important moral lessons. Similar lessons are taught in other traditions. Different lessons are also taught and are also important. Science has still more lessons. It is important to me to explore all of them, or as many as I can.

I am not, however, like some atheists who are as blind in their disbelief as some fundamentalist Christians are in their belief. I believe this life has a lot to teach us, if we are willing to listen and explore. To me, that is our purpose.

Ultimately, I think both the scientists and the theists are all trying to understand the same thing, the question of ‘What is our place in the universe.’ They approach it from different standpoints. The only shame in my mind is to simply accept what someone tells you is your place in the universe without ever exploring it.

No matter where we are on religion, we all must face the complex universe that we live in, explore it, and try to come to a better understanding of it and our place within it.

Because, ultimately, what else is it within our power to do?

I have found this broadcast so interesting because although I am a person of extreme faith, I have always critically questioned religion and the acts of God. I grew up overseas (the child of missionary parents) and I was fortunate to witness miracles of those with ailments such as palsy and cancer. I saw individuals missing limbs grow those limbs and walk or the dumb speak. I myself have been healed miraculously in a moment at the breath of a prayer and as a result I cannot deny the works of God. I despise religiosity and I agree that there is no difference between the average Christian and the average Atheist or any other person for that matter … but my faith is in God, not in man. I entrust Him with my faith because I believe that destruction is a result of man’s choices, not a sovereign, uncaring God. He has only been good to me.

When I was eleven years old I was invited on a canoe trip with my church youth group leader. I was awakened in the middle of the night horrified to realize he was attempting to masturbate me while I was asleep. I was told I had no choice he was going to do this. I was alone with him in a tent by the river with nowhere to go to get away from him. I did not tell anyone. A few weeks later, the same youth group leader arrogantly organized a presentation in the church to inform the kids about sexually abusive predators. Of course, I was disgusted and ashamed and did not tell anyone.
Throughout my life my mother told me until I accepted Jesus Christ as my personal savior my life would be miserable.
My experience has been and continues to be religious people are coercive, manipulative, and abusive.

I enjoyed the discussion. I think Mr. Lobdell confused his faith with the failings of people/priests that run institutions. the Catholic Priest scandals was an excuse for losing his faith. I ask him to look again for his faith, leave the institutions but keep the personal relationship with Christ. The scandals are evidence of the evil and havoc in man that only Satan can cause. The evidence that Satan is alive and well everywhere on earth and presently winning the war now is my evidence God is there somewhere. We should work a little harder at finding him and inviting him back maybe some of the evil we see will leave our world.

“My people perish for a lack of knowledge”, this is a scripture from the bible. How can you understand who God is if you don’t even understand who you are? We are spirits, we are all spirits and we have a soul (mind or consciousness) and we live in a body. Our spirit is our life force and without it our body, which is just a shell, dies. God is a spirit and created us and it is by the spirit that we connect and communicate with the Spirit of God. If you profess to be atheiest, you are denying a spiritual connection with the one who created you. We all are human and having a body gives us access to the natural realm of this world and being spiritual gives us access to the spiritual realm. Maybe as atheists, you choose to believe that this is all there is and this is okay because we were given the ability to choose. There are a lot of things in life that cannot be explained like how you can feel someone looking at you and how a twin can sometimes feel when something is wrong with their sibling, or where the feeling comes from that helps you avoid danger when your mind was set to do what you had planned. Just because we can’t see something with our physical eyes doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist. You can’t see gravity, you can only see it’s effect. What is natural is natural and what is spirit is spirit, and the spirit is supernatural because it lives in two worlds at the same time and is capable of having power in both of them, when we know who and what we really are, we can begin to understand who God is and how the spiritual realm impacts our lives everyday whether we choose to acknowledge it or not. Lastly it is also written that the rain falls on the just and the unjust, so sometimes bad things do happen to good people, it’s just a part of being natural. Do you blame God when lightening strikes and kills someone, or do you blame God for the devistation of hurricane Katrina or the tsunami that killed hundreds of thousands? That wasn’t God, that was nature. Where was God? Whether acknowledged or not, His Spirit was in the hearts of everyone who gave help and hope to all those who were in need. I have never seen God just like I have never seen gravity, but I can feel His effects everyday.

Another quick comment, we do live in a world where choices of good and evil are made everyday. If someone chooses to do evil, that is not God’s fault, we have the power to choose right or wrong, good or evil. We live among people whose spirits are dark and find pleasure in doing evil to others, these people need to be exposed and punished. We have the power and the right to bring justice to evildoers.

As a good reporter, Mr. Lobdell, I would think you would welcome a tip to help you extend your research in the area of Christians who live with doubt and who even speak or write about this, sharing their struggles with doubt. For one obvious instance of this kind of communication, please check out the website “real live preacher”, a blog written by Gordon Atkinson. You’re right, as far as my experience teaches, that most Christians are quick to rush into situations where doubt is expressed and hose everything down with reminders of the paradoxes of faith. But not all Christians react this way.

To Susan:
Susan you stated the sex abuse scandals were only in the US. This is NOT accurate! Latin America (particularly Mexico and Brazil), Germany, France, Ireland and Canada; all these countries have had extensive sex abuse problems with their priests, and these are just the cases reported! Who knows how many go unreported… I am unsure about events in Asia.

Do a little checking the sex abuse problem in the Catholic church were global.

“No matter where we are on religion, we all must face the complex universe that we live in, explore it, and try to come to a better understanding of it and our place within it.
Because, ultimately, what else is it within our power to do?”

Exactly, Jay.
And our relative perception of the universe is not only determined by our place in time and space, but also by our momentary choices on that continuum.
As a scientist and world traveller one may have brought together the social credentials to preach one’s “belief” or “disbelief”–
but ultimately, knowledge simply gets in the way.

Another story of someone who lost his faith. How about interviewing someone who returned to his faith?

susan, i’d like to reiterate debbie’s comment to you. in ireland, there was general knowledge that many priests were non-celibate, long before it was considered newsworthy. intimations of these abuses, including ostensibly consensual relationships with women parishioners and nuns, could often be found in contemporary literature and other forms of popular culture.

earlier this month, Diarmuid Martin, the Archbishop of Dublin, in an “unprecedented” Holy Thursday homile, warned that a report by the Dublin Archdiocese Commission of Investigation, due out in a few months, will “shock” the country and reveal that thousands of children were abused by priests. he later said that it was possible to identify least 500 paedophile priests by name. the time period covered by the investigation is 1975 – 2004.

“New report to reveal level of clerical abuse”
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/new-report-to-reveal-level-of-clerical-abuse-14265999.html

***Anything else is simply a belief, including atheism, an incredibly arrogant belief.***

You really hit the point, right on!

For some reason, human being like to have an “opinion” about everything even if they don’t thorough know the answer.

People always like to say “I believe…… this and that…..”. How about just say “We don’t really know, but let’s explore and observe……..”.

We want everything to have a “quick” answer, so we can function and move on, otherwise. And those “quick” answer will ever stuck in our mind and we just follow as long as we live. I am sure everything does have an answer, but we may not ever find out, because we didn’t create this massive universe.

We can only use our limited human “senses” and “logic” to make sense out of things are beyond our imagination. But our speculation can be soooo……. way off.

To sum up, religion or atheism, an incredibly arrogant belief.

To Rachel:

Atheism is not an arrogant belief. It’s not arrogant to require evidence before believing in magic.

You seem to suggest that we should hedge our bets: “We don’t really know, but let’s explore and observe……..” Fine. Whenever there is evidence for the supernatural, please let me know. Until then, the burden of proof is on the believer. If we should reserve judgment about one particular superstition, why not all of them? Shouldn’t we “explore and observe” Elvis being alive, space aliens with anal probes, purple unicorns – the flying spaghetti monster! – lest we be “arrogant”?

so you’re saying that elvis isn’t alive?

Gina,

Taking into account the controversies between Northern and Southern Ireland, you picked an interesting source for your argument.

To clarify, of course scandals DO exist in other countries. However, when one compares, the US has the most pedophile accounts. Throughout the centuries people LOVE to put religious leaders under scrutiny. Take five out of ten men (not priests, pastors, etc) and sexual scandal stats are the same. I confer it is hard at times to see a difference in lifestyles between atheists, Christians, agnostics, etc.. That can not be a basis for ones faith.

As a regular fan of On Point, I got to say that Tom Ashbrook really dropped the ball on this one!

I wanted to hear more about William Lobdell’s investigations of religious leaders who have used (and still use) their faith-based authority for evil purposes like sexual exploitation of minors.

All I seemed to learn from the interview, is that the host can’t fathom how we atheists and assorted unreligious people, can be at peace in a world that isn’t deliberately designed for our benefit, and doesn’t provide a means for us to escape death! — I get the point! I talk to enough religious people who have this default setting that won’t allow leaving big questions of existence unanswered.

But there is at least a small percentage of the population that isn’t addicted to certainty, and demand answers regardless of whether they are real answers or fairy tales!

Look, there are lots of other parts of world has developed their moral compass thousands of years ago before Christ was born.

It amazed me how some religious groups of people think we can’t have moral value without bible, that gives me chill to realize how deeply rooted of their belief are so self-absorbed.

I was brought up in different culture, at times I feel that my moral compass are at work most of the time than religious people. Some of them will justify their radical action and bias in the name of GOD, how hypocritical!

Tom,
I listen to your program often. I am politically conservative so your program is one of my regular sources for opinions and views that are different from my own.

As a side bar; I rarly listen to the “right-wing” talking heads ….after all, even if they are correct, their pompus tone and repetative sound bites are a waste of natural resources (on many levels)!

Your topics are timely and the discussions are interesting. Your program often gives me new insight and expands my thinking, even when I disagree with you or a guest. I appreciate the job you do!

Your program featuring Mr Lobdell moved me to post for the first time.

After listening to the program and reading many of the online comments I was saddened by how much pain and animosity, and misunderstanding results from what should be a source of comfort and peace.
The complexities of the problem are as many and diverse as the people who practice religion. But I think there is a basic core problem that gets people off track.

The core of the problem can be catagorized as mis- guided expectations. First; with the idea that an ominpotent God would provide or allow only one right path to enlightenment is not credible and must eventually be questioned by any reasonable person of faith. Second; in western society, Evangelical Religion in the information age, has given us the expectation of.. “life altering, born again experiences”.. that will make our lives comfortable for evermore. Neither expectation stands the test of time.

Many people have very real life changing experiences! But eventually every mountian top experience leads us back down to a valley. In the valleys, where our faith is tested (and strengthened) people can become disappionted with the glib answers of the church.

When our daily struggles and doubts make us question and seek understanding at deeper and deeper levels, sometimes the church’s message seems hollow and unsatisfing. When we are strugling on our own faith walk and then we see examples of religious leaders who publicly fall short of the standards they teach, it is easy to judge religion unworthy and give up.

As Eleanor posted earlier “the church is not a museum for saints, it is a hospital for sinners”.It is people who fail, not God! It is organizations that go astray, Not God! Let’s not forget that learning to forgive is an opportunity for spiritual growth too.

The thing that the mega churches do very well is introduce a particular aspect of God and religion to many, many people. That is a good thing! People are hungry for spiritual teaching in the world we live in. But…when the new Christian grows sufficiently in wisdom and faith and reaches a point where there are more questions than answers (eventually all of us should reach these points)…it is our individual responsiblity… to seek answers from all sources; other religions, other faiths and science.

At the point of daunting questions and doubts, is not the time to turn your back on God. Seek greater understanding of God, from what ever source resonates with in you. It is humnan nature to have doubts and it is a part of our human mission to work through those doubts. Sometimes it is a very painful process. But turning away from God only delays a personal growth process that your soul will eventually move you toward again and again until you embrace the task. The answers you seek are not religious dogma but they may be hidden within religious dogma. The answers are found by seeking spiritual truth in every source available to you.

God is not limited to one holy book or just holy books. If you seek God in earnest, God is revealed everywhere in a song, a child, a friend, a news program, an advertisment, a horoscope…God is omnipotent and still speaking! God will reveal to you in the most ordinary moments and in ways that would seam meaningless to someone else, but you know your message because of the goose bumps and the chills along your spine.

Because we have free will we must make the choice to seek God. We must seek in earnest. We must diciplined our thoughts and emotions to have faith and positive expectations. We must be persistant in the quest for Truth. What is not required is perfection. We are acceptable and worthy as we are. Sometimes we feel closer to God than others. We must be patient with our selves and persist in our quest.

My seeking began over 30 years ago as a teenager disillusioned with the mainline Christian Church I was raised in. My journey lead me to read and explore New Age, Eastern Religions, Evangelical Faiths, and Science. I learned there was Truth in all, and that they all have more commonalties than differences. It is a matter of our expectations and what we choose to focus on. The key for me was learning to ask “What are the guiding principles?” I tried not to get stuck on the semantics or jargon of specific diciplines. I don’t get too mired in the historical circumstsnces but do reflect on the context of the times. As each religion offered lessons cloked in it’s own laungage and dogma I ask, “what is the underlying principle of this teaching?”. In that question… Truth is revealed.

Look for common Truths that all religions share. Look for examples that unite all people. Seek an understanding of what God is. For God is constant and with out contradiction.

Religious dogma is a tool for learning, sharing and using spiritual Truth. It can be used well or not, depending on the wisdom of the user. It is only a tool! If it does not serve you find another tool, another religion.

I came full circle.Jesus Christ is the teacher that most resonates with me yet I have many others both Christian and non. The Christian Religion is the tool I choose to practice with. The language and ritual is comfortable and familiar, although many of my core beliefs come from the gnostic traditions. Some of my evangelical friends who are still focused in very basic spiritual truth of Christian teaching have told me I’m posessed by the devil. but I love them anyway and I know someday the scales will fall from thier eyes and they will understand. God is not limited to a single brand of faith.

My home Church alone does not provide all my spiritual needs and resources. But it is a community of faithful people who share and support one another. We can all benifit from that kind of support. It is not necessary that we have the exact same beliefs, but it is necessary to find common ground and to respect an individual soul’s right to chose his or her own path.

In returning to my roots I discovered many principles I had learned elswhere, were also in the Bible. I had simple missed the concepts until they were revealed through another source.

I hope these thoughts will help someone else be open to new possiblities. To seek the Peace that passes all understanding. The Franciscan Theology mentioned in a previous post could be a good place for some to start

Thanks for another great program!
Peace to all…

“To the caller who claimed that “Do unto others” is a Christian rule, if you read Joseph Campbell and study mythology and religions that are older than a mere 2000 years, you’ll find a lot of ideas that pre-date Christ. Ignorance of history and other religions doesn’t mean Christianity is the one true religion.”

I was that caller, so I shall respond. I have read Campbell, and I am aware of all of those facts, none of which contradict my point that Jesus’ message was special for its time and in its place: the Mediterranean. The golden rule had been elucidated by Confucius hundreds of years earlier, but what Romans or Greeks at that time new of Confucius? It was a larger world back then. It is historical fact that Christianity reshaped the societies that it touched. There was still evil in Christian nations, but standards did change. In my opinion, for the better.

susan,

the “interesting source” i linked to was simply one of several i looked at which presented the same factual info, ie, quoting the archbishop about the upcoming report on priest pedophiles and their victims. foxnews and bbc had the same info; i chose an irish source.

from a site presumably free of anti-catholic bias:
“Irish archbishop warns: report on sex abuse will be shocking” http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=2656

finally, even a news story that opens w/ the sentence “The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin yesterday called for God’s forgiveness of priests who have abused children” nonetheless goes on to say “At a Holy Thursday Mass, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said the shocking report by the Commission of Investigation into sex abuse by priests would reveal that thousands of children, perhaps as many as 30,000, were abused by priests in the 30 years from 1975 to 2004.”
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Forgive-them-for-they-have-sinned-42848172.html

i’m sorry, but your original statement “almost ALL of these scandals originate in the US” is nonsense.

One of the questions raised during the show was how, in the absence of traditional religion, we might provide the love, compassion and spiritual sustenance that most people need. I’d like to suggest that organizations are evolving that can fill that need. One that you may be familiar with is Greg Epstein’s humanist chaplaincy at Harvard.

Another institution is the Unitarian Universalist church. Although UUs often use the word “church” the “religion,” if it truly is one, is a religion only in the loosest sense of the word. People in the UU denomination are free to pursue their own truth and are not forced into accepting any dogma. Yet, UU churches, societies and fellowships are full of the kind of caring and love that many associate with more traditional religions.

The book sounds very interesting, the man’s journey a common one for many of us who found our way out of the darkness of religion and into the light of reason. I’m looking forward to reading it.

I have to say that I was disgusted by Tom Ashbrook throughout the interview. He was glib and condescending during the entire interview. He showed a total lack of respect for his guest and for the millions of people who are atheists or agnostics.

He completely disregarded every single person who does not believe the same way he appearently does. That somehow he knows that we are unhappy and unfullfilled and have no hope because we don’t believe in an afterlife. Or without the church you can’t feel a sense of community! How ignorant. I live in the now, I do my best to try and make the world a better place, I want to “leave my mark” on this society because I have one life and only one life. I don’t sit around hoping for a god to make my life better or to make the world a better place, I don’t dream about the afterlife. I’m in the hear and now and that gives me a great sense of fulfillment. I have a great community of friends, both theistic and atheistic. I don’t need a church to organize functions for me, or to help me through rough times – that’s what friends and family are for. I don’t need a religious leader to tell me what I should think or how I should act, I research things myself and come to the best informed decision I can; and I focus on the betterment of my fellow human beings – and not just those in my church and not just those that believe the same way I do.

When he talked about the golden rule I wanted to scream. The golden rule does not come from Christianity, like Mr. Ashbrook claimed; it existed in Eastern philosophies long before christianity came around.

Yes, many of us that are atheists or agnostics are angry and we’re screaming out. It’s not because, at least for many of us, that we want to rid the world of religion. It’s because we’re fed up with the Religious Right trying to force their beliefs down our throats by turning their religious beliefs into law.

Why is it that athiests are supposed to respect religous belief when those believers don’t respect our right not to believe?

I would have loved to have been a caller on this episode to rebut the “Angry Atheist” labels of Hitchens et.al.

We’re atheists, true. That means we don’t believe in any gods, don’t have faith, and don’t believe in sin/hell/heaven/etc. The author on the show even mentioned that PRAYER DOES NOT WORK. Not even a little. Not even for the Pope. There is not one verifiable documented case of a “miracle”, nor anything verifiably supernatural happening. EVER.

There is NO historical proof of Jesus. Ditto on Zeus, Odin, or Vishnu. Zero. There is certainly plenty of historical documentation on men who used and guided religion, but that’s not the same thing, is it?

So, for you religious folk, deal with it: There is zero proof or evidence. Does that obliterate your faith? No? Well fine, but you should understand that we atheists don’t have your faith and want it out of our personal lives.

Which brings me to the “Angry” part. Hitchens/Dennet/Harris/Dawkins state what we believe and we’re called “angry” for it, nevermind that we’ve had more than two thousand years of your hegemony in rubbing our faces in your imaginary ownership of “truth” (which includes your Crusades, Inquisitions, jihads, right-wing pogroms, book-burning, science-suppression, homophobia, immoral wars, lies, torture…)

If you read even ONE century’s worth of history of the last two thousand years (pick a century, any century), how can you not dump this evil and festering sore of lies. The mind boggles.

Oh wait, I have my answer to my last post… because it “makes me feel good.” Because “it brings comfort.” Oh wait, because “it’s tradition.”

Give me a break. Children believe in magic and fairies but we grow out of most of it. Why do adults persist?

Despite the people giving the priest a standing ovation, does Mr. Lobdell think that God approves of child molesters in the Catholic Church or anywhere else?

People say that they leave God because of the actions of other people and we all know people who claim to be Christians and live very immoral lives.

Yet the validity of Christianity is not based on the actions of others, but on only one thing- the historical life, death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

chris@awalkintheforest.net

[...] heard religion reporter William Lobdell on Tom Ashbrook’s radio show/podcast talk about losing his religion. But like me, and unlike many atheists, he liked religion and still [...]