People say that they leave God because of the actions of other people and we all know people who claim to be Christians and live very immoral lives.

Yet the validity of Christianity is not based on the actions of others, but on only one thing- the historical life, death and bodily resurrection of Jesus Christ.

chris@awalkintheforest.net

Give me a break. Children believe in magic and fairies but we grow out of most of it. Why do adults persist?

We’re atheists, true. That means we don’t believe in any gods, don’t have faith, and don’t believe in sin/hell/heaven/etc. The author on the show even mentioned that PRAYER DOES NOT WORK. Not even a little. Not even for the Pope. There is not one verifiable documented case of a “miracle”, nor anything verifiably supernatural happening. EVER.

There is NO historical proof of Jesus. Ditto on Zeus, Odin, or Vishnu. Zero. There is certainly plenty of historical documentation on men who used and guided religion, but that’s not the same thing, is it?

So, for you religious folk, deal with it: There is zero proof or evidence. Does that obliterate your faith? No? Well fine, but you should understand that we atheists don’t have your faith and want it out of our personal lives.

Which brings me to the “Angry” part. Hitchens/Dennet/Harris/Dawkins state what we believe and we’re called “angry” for it, nevermind that we’ve had more than two thousand years of your hegemony in rubbing our faces in your imaginary ownership of “truth” (which includes your Crusades, Inquisitions, jihads, right-wing pogroms, book-burning, science-suppression, homophobia, immoral wars, lies, torture…)

If you read even ONE century’s worth of history of the last two thousand years (pick a century, any century), how can you not dump this evil and festering sore of lies. The mind boggles.

I have to say that I was disgusted by Tom Ashbrook throughout the interview. He was glib and condescending during the entire interview. He showed a total lack of respect for his guest and for the millions of people who are atheists or agnostics.

He completely disregarded every single person who does not believe the same way he appearently does. That somehow he knows that we are unhappy and unfullfilled and have no hope because we don’t believe in an afterlife. Or without the church you can’t feel a sense of community! How ignorant. I live in the now, I do my best to try and make the world a better place, I want to “leave my mark” on this society because I have one life and only one life. I don’t sit around hoping for a god to make my life better or to make the world a better place, I don’t dream about the afterlife. I’m in the hear and now and that gives me a great sense of fulfillment. I have a great community of friends, both theistic and atheistic. I don’t need a church to organize functions for me, or to help me through rough times – that’s what friends and family are for. I don’t need a religious leader to tell me what I should think or how I should act, I research things myself and come to the best informed decision I can; and I focus on the betterment of my fellow human beings – and not just those in my church and not just those that believe the same way I do.

When he talked about the golden rule I wanted to scream. The golden rule does not come from Christianity, like Mr. Ashbrook claimed; it existed in Eastern philosophies long before christianity came around.

Yes, many of us that are atheists or agnostics are angry and we’re screaming out. It’s not because, at least for many of us, that we want to rid the world of religion. It’s because we’re fed up with the Religious Right trying to force their beliefs down our throats by turning their religious beliefs into law.

Why is it that athiests are supposed to respect religous belief when those believers don’t respect our right not to believe?

Another institution is the Unitarian Universalist church. Although UUs often use the word “church” the “religion,” if it truly is one, is a religion only in the loosest sense of the word. People in the UU denomination are free to pursue their own truth and are not forced into accepting any dogma. Yet, UU churches, societies and fellowships are full of the kind of caring and love that many associate with more traditional religions.

the “interesting source” i linked to was simply one of several i looked at which presented the same factual info, ie, quoting the archbishop about the upcoming report on priest pedophiles and their victims. foxnews and bbc had the same info; i chose an irish source.

from a site presumably free of anti-catholic bias:
“Irish archbishop warns: report on sex abuse will be shocking” http://www.catholicculture.org/news/headlines/index.cfm?storyid=2656

finally, even a news story that opens w/ the sentence “The Roman Catholic Archbishop of Dublin yesterday called for God’s forgiveness of priests who have abused children” nonetheless goes on to say “At a Holy Thursday Mass, Archbishop Diarmuid Martin said the shocking report by the Commission of Investigation into sex abuse by priests would reveal that thousands of children, perhaps as many as 30,000, were abused by priests in the 30 years from 1975 to 2004.”
http://www.irishcentral.com/news/Forgive-them-for-they-have-sinned-42848172.html

i’m sorry, but your original statement “almost ALL of these scandals originate in the US” is nonsense.

I was that caller, so I shall respond. I have read Campbell, and I am aware of all of those facts, none of which contradict my point that Jesus’ message was special for its time and in its place: the Mediterranean. The golden rule had been elucidated by Confucius hundreds of years earlier, but what Romans or Greeks at that time new of Confucius? It was a larger world back then. It is historical fact that Christianity reshaped the societies that it touched. There was still evil in Christian nations, but standards did change. In my opinion, for the better.

As a side bar; I rarly listen to the “right-wing” talking heads ….after all, even if they are correct, their pompus tone and repetative sound bites are a waste of natural resources (on many levels)!

Your topics are timely and the discussions are interesting. Your program often gives me new insight and expands my thinking, even when I disagree with you or a guest. I appreciate the job you do!

Your program featuring Mr Lobdell moved me to post for the first time.

After listening to the program and reading many of the online comments I was saddened by how much pain and animosity, and misunderstanding results from what should be a source of comfort and peace.
The complexities of the problem are as many and diverse as the people who practice religion. But I think there is a basic core problem that gets people off track.

The core of the problem can be catagorized as mis- guided expectations. First; with the idea that an ominpotent God would provide or allow only one right path to enlightenment is not credible and must eventually be questioned by any reasonable person of faith. Second; in western society, Evangelical Religion in the information age, has given us the expectation of.. “life altering, born again experiences”.. that will make our lives comfortable for evermore. Neither expectation stands the test of time.

Many people have very real life changing experiences! But eventually every mountian top experience leads us back down to a valley. In the valleys, where our faith is tested (and strengthened) people can become disappionted with the glib answers of the church.

When our daily struggles and doubts make us question and seek understanding at deeper and deeper levels, sometimes the church’s message seems hollow and unsatisfing. When we are strugling on our own faith walk and then we see examples of religious leaders who publicly fall short of the standards they teach, it is easy to judge religion unworthy and give up.

As Eleanor posted earlier “the church is not a museum for saints, it is a hospital for sinners”.It is people who fail, not God! It is organizations that go astray, Not God! Let’s not forget that learning to forgive is an opportunity for spiritual growth too.

The thing that the mega churches do very well is introduce a particular aspect of God and religion to many, many people. That is a good thing! People are hungry for spiritual teaching in the world we live in. But…when the new Christian grows sufficiently in wisdom and faith and reaches a point where there are more questions than answers (eventually all of us should reach these points)…it is our individual responsiblity… to seek answers from all sources; other religions, other faiths and science.

At the point of daunting questions and doubts, is not the time to turn your back on God. Seek greater understanding of God, from what ever source resonates with in you. It is humnan nature to have doubts and it is a part of our human mission to work through those doubts. Sometimes it is a very painful process. But turning away from God only delays a personal growth process that your soul will eventually move you toward again and again until you embrace the task. The answers you seek are not religious dogma but they may be hidden within religious dogma. The answers are found by seeking spiritual truth in every source available to you.

God is not limited to one holy book or just holy books. If you seek God in earnest, God is revealed everywhere in a song, a child, a friend, a news program, an advertisment, a horoscope…God is omnipotent and still speaking! God will reveal to you in the most ordinary moments and in ways that would seam meaningless to someone else, but you know your message because of the goose bumps and the chills along your spine.

Because we have free will we must make the choice to seek God. We must seek in earnest. We must diciplined our thoughts and emotions to have faith and positive expectations. We must be persistant in the quest for Truth. What is not required is perfection. We are acceptable and worthy as we are. Sometimes we feel closer to God than others. We must be patient with our selves and persist in our quest.

My seeking began over 30 years ago as a teenager disillusioned with the mainline Christian Church I was raised in. My journey lead me to read and explore New Age, Eastern Religions, Evangelical Faiths, and Science. I learned there was Truth in all, and that they all have more commonalties than differences. It is a matter of our expectations and what we choose to focus on. The key for me was learning to ask “What are the guiding principles?” I tried not to get stuck on the semantics or jargon of specific diciplines. I don’t get too mired in the historical circumstsnces but do reflect on the context of the times. As each religion offered lessons cloked in it’s own laungage and dogma I ask, “what is the underlying principle of this teaching?”. In that question… Truth is revealed.

Look for common Truths that all religions share. Look for examples that unite all people. Seek an understanding of what God is. For God is constant and with out contradiction.

Religious dogma is a tool for learning, sharing and using spiritual Truth. It can be used well or not, depending on the wisdom of the user. It is only a tool! If it does not serve you find another tool, another religion.

I came full circle.Jesus Christ is the teacher that most resonates with me yet I have many others both Christian and non. The Christian Religion is the tool I choose to practice with. The language and ritual is comfortable and familiar, although many of my core beliefs come from the gnostic traditions. Some of my evangelical friends who are still focused in very basic spiritual truth of Christian teaching have told me I’m posessed by the devil. but I love them anyway and I know someday the scales will fall from thier eyes and they will understand. God is not limited to a single brand of faith.

My home Church alone does not provide all my spiritual needs and resources. But it is a community of faithful people who share and support one another. We can all benifit from that kind of support. It is not necessary that we have the exact same beliefs, but it is necessary to find common ground and to respect an individual soul’s right to chose his or her own path.

In returning to my roots I discovered many principles I had learned elswhere, were also in the Bible. I had simple missed the concepts until they were revealed through another source.

I hope these thoughts will help someone else be open to new possiblities. To seek the Peace that passes all understanding. The Franciscan Theology mentioned in a previous post could be a good place for some to start

Thanks for another great program!
Peace to all…

It amazed me how some religious groups of people think we can’t have moral value without bible, that gives me chill to realize how deeply rooted of their belief are so self-absorbed.

I was brought up in different culture, at times I feel that my moral compass are at work most of the time than religious people. Some of them will justify their radical action and bias in the name of GOD, how hypocritical!

I wanted to hear more about William Lobdell’s investigations of religious leaders who have used (and still use) their faith-based authority for evil purposes like sexual exploitation of minors.

All I seemed to learn from the interview, is that the host can’t fathom how we atheists and assorted unreligious people, can be at peace in a world that isn’t deliberately designed for our benefit, and doesn’t provide a means for us to escape death! — I get the point! I talk to enough religious people who have this default setting that won’t allow leaving big questions of existence unanswered.

But there is at least a small percentage of the population that isn’t addicted to certainty, and demand answers regardless of whether they are real answers or fairy tales!

Taking into account the controversies between Northern and Southern Ireland, you picked an interesting source for your argument.

To clarify, of course scandals DO exist in other countries. However, when one compares, the US has the most pedophile accounts. Throughout the centuries people LOVE to put religious leaders under scrutiny. Take five out of ten men (not priests, pastors, etc) and sexual scandal stats are the same. I confer it is hard at times to see a difference in lifestyles between atheists, Christians, agnostics, etc.. That can not be a basis for ones faith.

Atheism is not an arrogant belief. It’s not arrogant to require evidence before believing in magic.

You seem to suggest that we should hedge our bets: “We don’t really know, but let’s explore and observe……..” Fine. Whenever there is evidence for the supernatural, please let me know. Until then, the burden of proof is on the believer. If we should reserve judgment about one particular superstition, why not all of them? Shouldn’t we “explore and observe” Elvis being alive, space aliens with anal probes, purple unicorns – the flying spaghetti monster! – lest we be “arrogant”?

You really hit the point, right on!

For some reason, human being like to have an “opinion” about everything even if they don’t thorough know the answer.

People always like to say “I believe…… this and that…..”. How about just say “We don’t really know, but let’s explore and observe……..”.

We want everything to have a “quick” answer, so we can function and move on, otherwise. And those “quick” answer will ever stuck in our mind and we just follow as long as we live. I am sure everything does have an answer, but we may not ever find out, because we didn’t create this massive universe.

We can only use our limited human “senses” and “logic” to make sense out of things are beyond our imagination. But our speculation can be soooo……. way off.

To sum up, religion or atheism, an incredibly arrogant belief.

earlier this month, Diarmuid Martin, the Archbishop of Dublin, in an “unprecedented” Holy Thursday homile, warned that a report by the Dublin Archdiocese Commission of Investigation, due out in a few months, will “shock” the country and reveal that thousands of children were abused by priests. he later said that it was possible to identify least 500 paedophile priests by name. the time period covered by the investigation is 1975 – 2004.

“New report to reveal level of clerical abuse”
http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/local-national/new-report-to-reveal-level-of-clerical-abuse-14265999.html

Exactly, Jay.
And our relative perception of the universe is not only determined by our place in time and space, but also by our momentary choices on that continuum.
As a scientist and world traveller one may have brought together the social credentials to preach one’s “belief” or “disbelief”–
but ultimately, knowledge simply gets in the way.

Do a little checking the sex abuse problem in the Catholic church were global.