hopefully Abbas can get obama and the congress/senate to condemn settlements still being built in the west bank the same day benn N and obama had there meeting more premits was going out.,maybe also the demolitions of Palestinians houses and lack of permits on top. You know do the rounds like Benn N. did. nor his failure to even halt new ones. Why is it that we cannot have UN peacekeepers controlling the boarders, including turkey as well.

along with the notion that its very complicated so its hard to achieve peace. reality check stop taking land, labeling every pally a terrorist, treat each with respect,stop starving and collective punish the civilians for democratically electing someone you do not like.as with the PLO find and work with the moderates of hamas to weaken the extremist in the party Make the state of israel for all not just jews and peace will be much easier to achieve.

Can u talk also about the banning of arab israeli politicians,making it a 3 yrs jail term over the Nakba ban proposal.The failure of the new israeli government to agree on a 2 state solution, again halt settlements.

for those who will try and tell me to criticize other countries if i criticize israel u can bug off, im not going to name off 8 different countries to criticize one just as i wouldnt expect u to name israel each time we talk about human rights abuses in other countries.

I wish Abbas well but if he wants peace he’ll need to reconcile with hamas to do so,contrary to what some may believe not all hamas leaders and supporters are extremist just as not all Ben N supporter racist. And once the PLO was considered terrorist and working with the moderates of the party both israel and the pally than started working together. If israel continues it’s polices currently there be no peace and very little support for it. and watch as it slowly sucks in the west bank and create a swiss cheese such state for abbas and his people.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8066892.stm

abbas can only become stronger when all the pallys back him. does your guess have any ideas on how to do this?

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=104356468

ha! yes the great Dr. Abas , the same one who wrote his doctorial dissertation on denying the Holocaust …..That makes him a doctor in Bull….it. He says one thing to the west,and shows his real face to his brothers in the Arab world …..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxyPBQirBH0&NR=1

We are duing a Public Investigative Journalism Project about the Reasons/Motives for Invation of Iraq.
Was it for “Oil” (90% of the public opinion), or anything else.

Please participate here (towards the end of Comments)
http://www.onpointradio.org/2009/05/memorial-day-2009#comments

We need more names of people added to the list.
Names of people who publicly scared us and the congress to give War Powers to Bush.
People who sold the Idea of Regime Change between Sep 2001-Mar 2003.

Please participate in this project.

I don’t understand how this can happen. Can somebody explain this to me.

How can US Congress can give boatloads of Aid (in billions) to the Country of Georgia. The Aid has two strings.

a) Georgia will send soldiers to Iraq, so that we will dress up the Occupation as an International Operation.
b) Georgia will hire hundreds of Israeli IDF people at very high contract wages with American Taxpayers’ Money.

How can our Congress and White House spend/waste our money like Drunken Sailors.

The Georgian Government was so happy with this deal. George Bush was the most hated person in all corners of the world; but in Tiblisi (Capitol of Georgia), they named their major boulevard George W. Bush Avenue.

Believe it or not = Google it

hi Dianna,

try reading http://en.rian.ru/ if u wanna know more about georgia. currently there pres is under protest and pressure to step down due to corruption, the attack on SO and the constant taunting of russia. in the next few months there will be nato exericises next to the boarder of SO which russia condemns.

there been protesting going on there for about a month each day this time the crackdown is not as undemocractic as the years prior, if u go to the georgia times(very onsided) but it talks about the deal bush sign with them on between jan 12 to 18 and the billions of aid that was used to purchase and rebuild there army.

What a panel! Outstanding guests Tom.

Ok, I understood the rebuilding of the Army, etc.

But I don’t understand what is the point of giving away some of that American Taxpayers’ Money to Israeli Consultants. In the world of favors, money goes only in one direction. From our Pocket to anything to do with Israel. Who makes these decisions, under what kind of scrutiny?

Enough is Enough.

Our town has given up on the Potholes in the streets, because of lack of money.

Excellent guests, bright scholars.

Looking at a map of the West Bank, I cannot see how it is possible to create a Palestinian state. If you don’t have two states before 2012, you will not find any Palestinian asking for their own state anymore … Instead more Palestinians are asking for a one-state solution….

What a great team of Guests.
Congratulations OnPoint. You are getting there.
Very very impressed.

Dianna A its called politics. The government of the United States hands out billions in aid to a lot of countries.

The pot holes in your town is a local issue.
I agree with you that we send way to much money abroad in aid. Some of it does go to good programs and some does not.

You question the money to Israel but you don’t seem to care about the billions of wasted tax dollars that went to private companies in Iraq that have ripped us off. The amount of theft Halliburton and other companies have participated in makes the money our government gives to Israel like chump change.

How about cutting back on military waste and spending, that would save billions.

Putney

I think you make a very intelligent point.

Just because we waste money somewhere else, we should channel money under the table to high-level Israeli generals from US Treasury.

What you are saying does makes sense. If you can’t stop the waste, just give it away.

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Davit Kezerashvili (Georgia Defense Minister, also Israeli citizen)

Gal Hirsch , Brigadier-General IDF
Yisrael Ziv, Major-General, IDF
Roni Milo, Former Minister
Shlomo Milo, Roni’s Brother

Sayeret Matkal / Elbit Systems + 14 other defense companies that got US Taxpayer money through Georgia Dept. of Defense.

The Israelis look for the Palestinians to move to other Arab states or die. The Istaelis don’t recognize the Palestinians as anything but an infestation of their land.

I think a Palestinian state is the right thing to do. Go back and look at how they were treated by the Israeli’s since 1948.

I agree with a previous comment that the American media seems to be pro Israeli and anti Palestine. I am not anti-Israel nor am I anti-Palestine.

I believe the Christian majority blindly sides with Israel. What they don’t understand is that there are many Christain Palestinians that are persecuted under the Israeli Government.

I think Israel should stop grabbing Palestinian property unless they are going to compensate them for it.

Oh boy, now all the extreme anti-Israelis are coming out of the wood work.

I am afraid that Obama Administration will be a hostage of the History. Before him, 6-7 American Presidents either tried or pretended trying. They all failed.

Somebody posted an alternative solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Basically Israel purchasing the land they occupied and the land they want. With large sums of money exchanging hands, both sides can get what they cannot get from an eternal conflict that we are in.

The more I think about it, the more sense it makes.

Can somebody post that link again. It was some sort of a biopharma web site.

Gracias

I agree to a point with caller Elaine. The U.S., at best, says to Israel “please don’t do that”. We invaded Iraq presumably because Saddam Hussain did not comply with U.N. resolutions. However, Israel has not complied with resolutions created 40 years ago to pull out of the occupied territories. Israel still builds settlements (though Netanyahu said it was just more houses within established settlements, people need somewhere to live. I think he is being pretty settlement specific in his comment) in the West Bank. We have not yet invaded Israel in order to force withdrawal from the West Bank. Why was refusal to comply with UN resolutions an acceptable reason to invade Iraq but not Israel?

On the other hand, Israel DID pull out of the Gaza Strip and in return Hamas continued to lob rockets at Israel daily. Yes, Israel controls the border with an iron fist, but I believe that if Hamas stopped sending rockets into Israel and stopped bringing weapons and materials to make weapons into Gaza, Israel would lighten up on the borders. The Palestinian people, at least in Gaza, could have a ‘normal’ lives were it not for Hamas.

Frankly, as long as both sides claim a religious right to any piece of land, there will never be peace.

Where is your supporting evidence Putney? Comments like yours does nothing but divide.

Any discussion on the future of Palestine is pointless without founding it upon the need for reform in the culture of the ME and in conservative Islam.

Thank you for having Professor Juan Cole on and for at least scheduling Rashid Khalidi. I lost my radio signal in the car and couldn’t learn whether or not Khalidi made it on the air. But these are indeed the types of guests who can help listeners understand the complex history and I congratulate On Point and Tom Ashbrook for setting up this program.

I agreed with your previous caller, I believe her name was Elaine, that the media has not covered Israeli violations of UN resolutions, Israeli crimes in Gaza, or long standing violations of Palestinian rights… the Israeli Defense Force has in fact been charged with war crimes, violations of the Geneva Conventions, as the caller indicated.

Meanwhile, the UN Secretary General Ban Ki Moon has met with Judge Goldstone to discuss the ongoing investigation into acts of war in Gaza that may have been violations. While the investigation has been watered down, at least it is a start.

I hope network TV, Radio, and net programming, will begin to cover the security situation more realistically. Two sides require security for the sake of civilian lives. Israelis could have negotiated an end to all of the violence a long time ago but refused to give up any occupied land.

I hope the meeting between Abbas and Obama goes well, however, it would hold more promise for true peace and security if Hamas were represented.

As was the case with Iran, previous US insistence on labeling MidEast leaders as “terrorists” and refusing to speak with them, is a problem.

Also, if the Obama administration wishes to pressure Israel to be more receptive to ending settlement construction there is always the option of discontinuing US Military aid to Israel.

Callers who come on hooting and hollering and are very disrespectful (yes, this discussion is a hot topic) do the best in discounting their own comments, no matter how insightful or accurate it may be.

I’m disappointed by the ignorance of some of the callers (on both “ends” of the political spectrum), but I am grateful for Tom’s very respectful, patient and balanced tone in handling the callers and moving the conversation back “On Point.” Thanks.

My opinion. You don’t like it that’s fine.
It seems to me that the subtext of a lot of comments is that Israel should not exist. This is not a solution to this issue. What is the solution, I don’t now, I honestly don’t know. I think Israel will self destruct in this century. I also think that the Palestinians will also self destruct. That is that the extremist on both sides will will win.

If Israel and the Palestinian leaders(including those who are not recognized as official leaders)go forward towards creating a 2-state solution- they will find that all of the untouched issues will come to the fore. If it is ever to be successful, they need to meticulously move forward through that sludge, and not retreat. This is a lesson that people learn on a personal level when they decide to confont an issue that they have buried, but when they do, the are able to resolve so much, and live with what is imperferct and painful, but in the end it was worth the result.

I hope that this happens

I am surprised that the academic temperament and its constructive instrument is allowed to be abused by the disrespectful tenor that you allow your caller to take when addressing your guest

I think it’s fine that BennN refuses to endorse two states. Two states is a wretched idea. The goal of US policy should be a democratic secular state in Palestine. I don’t think America will tolerate apartheid, and a single state solution is the way to unmask it.

If we are going to stay involved in the Middle East I think it should be required for our leaders to review “The Rise and Fall of the Roman Empire”

Meanwhile while the UN and world condemn Israel as the worlds worst violator of human rights on the history of the planet for defending itself , the Arab countries are getting away with the “real”violent violations of human rights and the murder of black Africans by Arabs in Darfur . This shows that there is no justice in this world and that Israel has to protect itself or it will be violently exterminated just like the poor people of Darfur .
The misinformation by Juan Cole and Rashid Khalidi is so great that it needs a whole book to answer them .

Here we go again with the apartheid bull… Get your correct information before posting.( Not what you hear)

Whose fault is it anyway?

Palestinian’s lobbing rockets from Gaza to Ashkelon.
The problem is that Ashkelon 100% belongs to Palestinians who were ethnically cleansed to Gaza.

Common sense says to Israeli’s: “If you want to be safe, get the hell out”

Putney,
I don’t know that most here think Israel should not exist. The issue is that in the end, the U.S. passively backs Israel’s actions ‘no matter what’, maybe a slight reprimand but no more. There are those (like me) who think Israel must pull back to the Oslo Agreement ‘Green Line’. The U.S. could certainly force this, as Dori Smith noted. Without U.S. money, Israel would collapse.

If the Israelis living in the Palestinian lands want to stay there, that is between them and the Palestinian government. Instead, Israel walls off the illegal Israeli settlements. Sorry, but they should never have been built.

Now, as to Israel protecting itself. Yes, they have the right to do so. But things are a lot different than 40 years ago, the Golan Heights are not as important for defense. The ‘high ground’ is in a satellite. Would Hamas stop lobbing rockets if Israel pulled back to the Green Line? I don’t know, they don’t think Israel should exist. The lack of occupation might only serve to show that their real goal is not to force the Israelis out of the occupied territory but into the Mediterranean Sea.

In the end, you may be right. The Israelis who say “God gave us this land and we won’t move” and the Palestinians who say “Israel should be destroyed” may win in the end. There may be a really large bay where Israel and the Palestinian territories are now.

Never got an answer about the 1 million jewish refugees kicked out of Arab countries …..

I can’t believe what I am hearing. The host of the show has two extreme anti-Israel guests – no balance at all – and lets the most unbelievable lies go sailing by without even challenging them? A moderately informed monkey could recognize the stuff these two are saying as propaganda. This is public radio???

Tom, this is for you. Your guest Rashid Khalidi, a PhD. scholar on Palestinian history LIED on your program in response to a caller who spoke about Arab anti-Semitism as a major factor in the 1948 war, or Naqba. http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

Somehow, Professor Khalidi, never heard of a huge figure in Palestinian history during WWII, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, Amin Al Husseini who raised an all-Muslim division of Hitler’s SS in Europe that proceeded to exterminate tens of thousands of Jewish families in Bosnia in cold blood. Husseini proceeded to spread Nazi Jew-Hatred to the Arab world. Nazi poison is repeated in mosques and on Arab television to this day, especially in Gaza and the West Bank.

The Arab response to the 1948 UN decision to partition the land into two states, Muslim and Jewish, was to attack, with the INTENTION to finish Hitler’s final solution, killing the remaining Jews.

PALESTINIAN REFUGEES ARE ACTUALLY THE TRAGIC VICTIMS OF AN ARAB LED GENOCIDE GONE AWRY.

The solution? Let’s discuss the TRUTH. Arabs need to take some responsibility for their past decisions and actions. Stop lying. Maybe then both sides can proceed with humility.

To all well meaning people,
Please look at the middle east with open eyes. Arab/Muslim supremacy has been confiscating African wealth and land.

Take the African country of Egypt. Probably nobody remembers that Egypt was a Coptic Christian country of ethnic Africans.

During the 1950’s U.S.-installed President Abdul Nassar started a campaign of looting, murdering wealthy families, and raping tribal queens. Now the wealth belongs to Arab families. Everyone things Egypt has always been an Arab/Muslim country. Well, it wasn’t.

Why do so many well-intentioned and educated people believe in the Arab-Victimization Narrative? Palestinians have always “resorted” to violence, from day one.

Do you just toss your value system out the window to please the “cool people”? Is it about who you want to hang out with? Or do you actually read, study, think?

Thank you Vermont.

I wish On Point dedicated a program to the settlers. West bank is America’s Western frontier. 20 to 30% of new settlers are Americans according to some accounts. You hear about Islamic extremism, I wish someone talked about our extremism. Palestinians are “native Americans” of our time. They are fair game and have been and will be hunted like “wolves” (George Washington speaking of native Americans.) Get real. Even if there is an agreement, Israel and America can renege on it. Someone said Political power comes from the barrel of the gun, so unfortunately true!
rightofreturn

wow the pro-israel spinsters are coming out to spin the truth. as pre israel and after its easy to pull up the acts of terrorism promoted and done to clears arabs out of villages and the land of israel. Which lead to one of the reason why arabs were so against the 2 state solutions back than.

or the new law being debated right now in israel trying to give all the pallys and parts of the west bank to jordan cause of some in israel fear one day the arab minorities may become the majority or there fear of losing jerusalem or being required to give up half of it. u google benn N or liberman and see the digusting stances and feeling towards arabs,

thanks on point for giving a counter balance to the often far right and far far right views and talking heads about this conflict.

like r.m. says the truth will come out. no matter how long these spinsters try and keep the truth from coming to light. the use of anti-semite and jew hating jews as a political weapon is starting to fail. from the constant crying wolf from some instead of debating the facts on the ground and truth.

is it not funny that 20 to 30 percent of the new settlers are americans and are still able to settle on internationally reconized as occupied land and under internally law.

like look at the double standards of U.N. resolutions and violated as israel to any other county.

thanks again onpoint i will like everyone i know about this show and ask them to listen.

i will let everyone i know about this show.

Thanks for presenting a show that finally gives some balance to the problem of the occupation. It is nearly impossible to get the Palestinian viewpoint presented in the American press. AIPAC clearly has a powerfull lobby that can dictate to our lawmakers.

Israel needs to return to the pre 67 borders but their new president won’t agree to even a stop in constuction. It all makes me wonder if Israel wants peace.

I’d like to know why plainly biases comments like Vermont’s are posted while mine languishes “awaiting moderation”?

Yes thank you Vermont

you should get your information straight rightofreturn because there were plenty of jews that were “native americans” living there who had never ever left the area …..but your ignorant fool know nothing about it ….because you don’t read ……Do you?
Do you also care about the 1 million “native American” Jews kicked out of Arab countries ,no you don’t because you are an anti-semite.

the United Nation ….Its a joke ..A country club for dictators of the world …..They accomplish nothing ……

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rxyPBQirBH0&NR=1

These Arabs can’t be trusted. They never critized the 9-11 attacks and blame America for their own failures.

to answer r.m. comment about the 1mill jews kicked out

if they wished to return to those arab countries than i be fighting for them as well , but your question is not that u wish for them to return but to silience debate,

and i as well as u know if they did return and those arab countries decided to build fences around them and make it horriable to live there because there jews and kept saying they should leave the land they return to everyone would be working to stop it.

again nice try r.m. at trying to spin the facts and truth.

Ann, the furious caller who called the entire world anti-semitic, is nuts. She needs to chill with the persecution complex.

Having listened twice, I can only applaud the professionally of all concerned. The respect to callers that had emotional investment, allowing time to formulate ideas is what talk radio is all about. Or should be.

how do you know they don’t want to go back ? did you interview some of them?

I guess its time again for Road to Jenin by Pierre Rehov:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3079049095214906504

there is no transference of suffering by jews …what kind of bull is this……
Rashid khalidi said that jewish muslim relation was good that’s a lie . It was not good. Please stop that myth. Jews were treated very badly

….The arabs were not expelled in 1948. They left when told that jews would be more easyly massacred . The ones who did not leave are still there living in Israel . Nashralllah in lebanon in the 2006 war told the arabs to leave so that jews could be massacred . They said “no we will no reapeat what happened in 1948″……Stop rewriting history

Haifa’s Arabs: We won’t leave city

Former MK Issam Mahoul rejects Nasrallah’s call to Haifa’s Arab population to evacuate city; ‘We have nothing to do outside of Haifa, and we refuse to be refugees,’ Mahoul asserts. Haifa Mayor: Nasrallah won’t succeed in uprooting Arab residents

Ahiya Raved Published: 08.10.06, 01:36 / Israel News

Former Knesset Member and Haifa resident Issam Mahoul on Wednesday categorically rejected Hizbullah chief Hassan Nasrallah’s call to Arab residents of Haifa to evacuate the city.

“We have nothing to do outside of Haifa, and we have no reason to panic. The Palestinian people are especially unwilling to be refugees of any kind again,” Mahoul told Ynet.

In response to the National Security Cabinet’s approval of a widened offensive in south Lebanon, Nasrallah addressed Israel in a recorded speech broadcast on al-Manar Wednesday night. “Thousands of intrepid fighters await you, and we’ll kick you out by force,” Nasrallah threatened.

Haifa building after rocket attack (Photo: Tzvi Roger)

Turning to the Arab residents of Haifa, Nasrallah said, “Please leave the area. We are grieving with you, we are weeping with you.”

In a conversation with Ynet, Mahoul said, “Nasrallah should have know that in 1948 the communist party was also opposed to Arab residents leaving their homes.” He added that in his opinion now was not the time to leave the city “in the hands of the supporters of the war,” and he was working so both the Jewish and Arab populations would avoid panic.

“Simultaneously, we are issuing a call not hit civilian populations in principle – not in Haifa, not in Lebanon and not in Gaza . This is the time for political action by all opponents of the war,” he said.

Haifa Mayor: Nasrallah won’t uproot residents

Haifa Mayor Yona Yahav also responded to Nasrallah’s statements. “The Arabs residents of Haifa are rooted deep in the city’s land, history and landscape. No Nasrallah will manage to uproot them from here, or distort the voices of this city,” Yahav said.

Yahav further noted that until now he received no information on expected attacks on his city, although he called on Haifa residents to continue complying with security instructions.

“This war is still far from over, and it is terrible if people are hurt,” he added.

For the ones who have not seen pallywood

(NOTICE THE FLAG AT 43 SECONDS):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_B1H-1opys#IIfAj_eg2EE

A.L., you’re right, that’s exactly what I was thinking. You have two “scholars” – Israel bashers for a long time, without anyone else to provide a different perspective? How’s that for a balanced program?
The emotional caller was not nuts, but was telling the truth for once in this whole program. She can lay down the persecution complex when we see the world rise up and punish anyone who threatens to wipe Israel off the map. I’m not holding my breath though.

I was actually very disappointed by the show, I usually like to hear balance with Tom and unfortunately it wasn’t. Even the callers, the fact that some were very irate demonstrated that there was something wrong with the presentation.
I personally would say that I believe the facts were definitely twisted by Dr. Rashid. I believe he should go back and look at history. There is a great book titled, “The Media Relations Department of Hizbollah Wishes You a Happy Birthday” which talks about how facts, the media and popaganda are twisted by Hizbollah specifically but also Hamas. (Look at the massacre at jenin for example)
Not that the original Israeli’s ans pre-state selttlers were angels (there were attrocities on both sides) but to put the entire blame on them is not the truth. The british and the other arab states have just as much to blame for this situation.
As for palestinian history in the land, again the facts are somewhat twisted. There are early 30’s and 40’s posters calling the Jewish settlers, the Palestinians. The word palestinian did not originally mean arab; the area the palestinians lived was huge, from lebanon to Transjordan, to Egypt and Syria. Many arabs left and moved to Lebanon (I know a number of families, now in the US because of the 70’s civil war that left Palestine in the 30’s and move to Lebanon, willingly because the land was more fertile).
I guess the interesting point very few people talk about it the role Jordan played in this whole conflict. There was a nice article in Newsweek talking about how Jordan was created by the British by taking much of the land (originally east of the Dead Sea) from existing Palestinians and then during the uprisings in the 70’s killing and jailing indefinitely 1000’s of palestinians before kicking them out altogether.
Although I think its great that we live in a country (actaully a world) where you can type your opinions, that does not make it fact, facts are created by the people there, in Israel, gaza, lebanon (read the lebanon star, the Jerusalem post, and other ‘uncontrolled’ journalistic papers before commenting, speak to people who actually live there, who can talk freely without fear of retribution).
Which leads me to my last point, the media. The media was not created to inform (sorry Tom) but to entertain (this show is usually very informative and entertaining) and that is why the ‘facts’ on Fox and the ‘facts’ on CNN or NPR or ABC are different. What we see in the USA for news is very different when you are in Europe or Asia or the Middle East. Until you can talk to a Lebanese, or a person from the west bank or Tel Aviv, opinions are just that opinions.

I listened a second time this evening, better girded for the emotional force of it, and coolly thought, ah-ha, there is something so obvious maybe everyone already knows and doesn’t say, everyone except me. And here all along I thought the settlements and the wall-produced-beehive-chambers were making a two-state solution impossible. Now I carry a big torch of hope.
If there are a million Palestinians in Israel, and the number of settlers in Palestinian post-1967 territory has doubled — well, we don’t know the number from the show, but it seems to me that in theory (in theory), there could be a second state without the beehive walls wherein the Jewish “settlers” are the minority population, and perhaps their expectation of a democratic and functioning government could help bring that about, and their ties to Israel could guarantee a degree of cooperation between the two countries. The treatment of the minority in each could reflect that of the other, as a matter of — of decency.
Anyone who lived in the shadow of World War II could see deeply entrenched enmity somehow dissolve into a kind of mutual respect. Germany. Japan.
The conviction erupting in this thread that massacres are inevitable deserves its nauseating obeisance, but to become an acolyte of such fear…

Great job on the show! This is a step in the right direction towards peace. And to comment on what the last lady caller said, Arabs are not Anti-Semitic because they speak the most widely Semitic language “Arabic”. Thanks again for the show!

I was appaled by this program feauturing two “academics” who were allowed to freely spout their rabidly anti-Israeli propaganda. I would have expected the moderator to at least inquire why the Arab world has rejected peace settlements based on the concept of two states for two peoples since 1937, most recently the 2000 Clinton Plan and last year’s proposal from then Israeli Prime Minister Olmert. There is more to the conflict than the “occupation” as claimed by the panelists: there was no occupation of Gaza/West Bank before ‘67 and no”refugees” before 1948, and yet the Arab world rejected peace. Maybe it has to do with the fact that much of the Arab world still clings to the myth that Jews are strangers to the Middle East and are to be denied the right to self-determination, a right which they automatically assume 61 Islamic and over 20 Arab states should enjoy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5wrwZlwAq8

I wish people on both sides of this conflict would think for a second about how short life already is, and wouldn’t try to make it shorter and more miserable by fighting over land, history, religion, race, etc., which compared to life itself are nothing but triviality.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bt_Y_3LKCGA&feature=related

“Yet some can be patriotic who have no self-respect, and sacrifice the greater to the less. They love the soil which makes their graves, but have no sympathy with the spirit which may still animate their clay.” — Henry David Thoreau

Good show. I think its too late for 2 state. The US needs to stop subsiding the occupation and Israel’s apartheid system with in excess of 3 BILLION/year. Money talks. (Of course the white phosphorus and cluster bomb producers in the US, as well as Caterpillar might not get as many Israeli orders, so nothing is simple.) What is simple is that the America I was taught to believe in supports equality, democracy, and human rights regardless of religion or race and that should extend to our foreign policy with Israel.
Right now, the Foreign Minister of Israel’s party has put forward two bills; one is a loyalty oath requirement of all citizens that they believe in political Zionism or they lose their citizenship and the second is that it will be illegal to reference the displacement and theft of Palestinians and Palestinian land in 1948 (Nakba-translated Catastrophe) and anyone who talks about it can serve up to 5 years in prison.
Hopefully, these bills will not become law, but the fact that have made it through committee speaks volumes about freedom and human rights in Israel, let alone Gaza (where people build houses from adobe due to the lack of cement now as a result of Israel’s siege), & the Israeli MIlitarily Occupied West Bank (going on 42 YEARS!) Personally, I don’t want my tax dollars supporting this.

Tom this is for you: This show, ostensibly about what can be expected when Abbas meets Obama in DC, is a “hate-in”. Two famously anti-Israel academics are brought in as the commentators to pound away at Israel (with lies and propaganda). Discussion by them and callers is about all problems are Israel’s fault, that USA is too pro-Israel (which works against American interests and the interests of peace), that lobbyists drive American Israel policy (not US national interest). Lies and inaccuracies flying everywhere. Tom, you throw underhanded lob-balls to these Israel haters, e.g. one commentator complains about how hard it is for the Muslim minority to live in Israel, when you certainly know most Christians have been driven out of the West Bank, and minorities in Arab countries are persecuted, and even Muslim minorities are usually not even allowed to live in them. And you let all this go by unchallenged. This is public radio? Rather, this is public disgrace and embarrassment, a propaganda platform, not journalism.

Yes it is amazing that the Palestinian refugee camps in Israel and settlements get so much focus while the real problem is the rich Arab countries that profit so greatly by keeping the thorn in Israel’s paw.

The Italian newspaper “Corriere Della Sera ” was right ….:

Report: Most Hamas ‘officers’ killed in Gaza were terrorists

Independent research refutes Hamas’ claims about number of innocent people killed during Gaza war

Roee Nahmias Published: 05.24.09, 18:37

An independent research company revealed Sunday that 90% of the Palestinian “security personnel” killed in Gaza during the IDF offensive there in January were members of terror organizations.

The IDF says 709 gunmen were killed in the fighting, of which Hamas has claimed 343 were innocent police officers.

But the independent Israeli ‘Orient Research Group’, hired by former Prime Minister Ehud Olmert to investigate the identities of those killed, has released a report challenging Hamas’ claim.

The report says 286 of the 343 “police officers” killed were members of terror organizations, the vast majority of them belonging to Hamas’ military wings.

It also states that the official list of names provided by Hamas includes one traffic officer, who was a member of the Izz a-Din al-Qassam Brigades, and 27 members of various forces trained to battle Israel.

“The statement that Israel attacked innocent policemen was apparently rushed and made without an investigation by the organizations into the identities of the slain policemen,” the report says, adding that the organizations did not wait until the publication of the IDF’s report on the matter, “which relies on intelligence regarding the targets that were struck”.

The report also refers to the claim that the first Air Force strike of the Gaza offensive hit a ceremony attended by members of a Hamas traffic police training course.

It says almost 88% of those present were terror operatives, many of them belonging to the al-Qassam Brigades. Altogether they numbered 78 of the 89 Hamas reported dead.

‘Terrorists given security posts’
The report also goes into detail regarding the names published in Hamas’ report. For example Mohammad al-Dasuki, said to have served as a “naval police officer”, was also a member of the Popular Resistance Committees (PRC) and was suspected to have been involved in a terror attack against American security guards in Gaza in October 2003.

Another victim mentioned, Khamza al-Khaledi, who was listed as a “captain of police”, was also active in an al-Qaeda affiliated terror organization.

“The claims against the IDF, by which it had killed ‘traffic officers’ and ‘innocent’ officers fulfilling civilian roles, are incorrect,” the report says. “The vast majority of the Palestinian ‘officers’ were active in the military wings of Palestinian terror organizations and warriors who underwent military training.”

It adds, “The enlistment of al-Qassam Brigades operatives to official security positions allows the Hamas government to pay their wages with the government budget, thus increasing

I think DR back at 7:49 was referencing “The Daily Star” of Lebanon, and Jerusalem Post. All this huffing and puffing about hurling of lies — I don’t credit these posts with hundred percent accuracy either. So.

Please ameer I think you must know by now that anti-Semitic is a term given because of being Jewish and not being an Arab.

The Balen Report Should Now Be Published
Iain Dale Wednesday, February 11, 2009

The House of Lords has ruled this morning (by 3-2) that the BBC should publish the controversial Balen Report, which it commissioned after accusations that its coverage of Middle East politics was too pro Palestinian and too anti Israeli. However, this is not the end of the matter, and it now returns to the High Court

BBC gets it right for once

The BBC got it right here, but probably for the wrong reasons. Very funny !

See below for the usual BBC / Channel 4 / Sky News guidelines for Israel….

1. always accept the Palestinian version without question

2. interview at least 8 Palestinian supporters to every Israeli supporter

3. assume the UN is impartial, and a shining beacon of justice in a dark world

4. assume any video / photos provided by Palestinians are always reliable – never question their veracity. It’s probably not worth bothering viewers with the fact that much of the media is doctored or staged – this will only confuse them

5. gloss over the last 60 years of history (never mention how 6 Arab armies tried to destroy Israel in ‘48, ‘67, and ‘73)

6. don’t report how Hamas (etc) bully, torture and murder their own people, or misappropriate aid/finance (or if you do, play it down)

7. NEVER mention that Iran / Hamas / Fatah have vowed to destroy Israel and kill every Jew in the world (if you do mention it, assume they don’t really mean it)

8. Report only the words that Fatah say in English, never what they say in Arabic

9. if you interview an Israeli (or misguided supporter such as Colonel Kemp, Mark Regev), make sure you interrupt them frequently. If you’re coming off second best, tell them you’re running out of time

10. if interviewing a Palestinian (or Annie Lennox, Alexei Sayle), make sure you ask them lots of really open questions, allowing lots of time to air their views without interruption – nod frequently to show your support. Don’t interrupt them, as this is disrespectful

11. above all, the tone of your voice should exhibit disapproval towards Israel, and sympathy towards Palestinians

12. ensure you use the word “occupation” as much as you can (don’t get involved in meaningless discussions concerning how Israel either paid huge sums for swamps / wilderness in ‘48, or won it when arabs declared war on them)

13. never report anti-semitic attacks/incidents from the UK or elsewhere (we are unsure as to why these are increasing, but certain it has nothing to do with how we are portraying the situation)

14. don’t report Pro-Israel activity such as marches – nobody cares, and these people are misguided anyway. If the politicians from all parties turn a blind eye, why shouldn’t we ?

15. if you get the facts wrong (Israel murders 1000’s in Bethlehem), never issue an apology or retraction

16. It is probably more news-worthy if you paint Israel as the aggressor – so don’t mention that Hamas launched over 6,000 rockets into Israel after Israel had vacated the Gaza strip

17. On proportionality, probably not worth mentioning comparisons with civilian casualties in Iraq, Afghanistan, or WW2 Germany (this will only confuse people). The fact that Hamas deliberately booby-trapped civilian homes and made people go into them, we are sure, has nothing to do with civilian casualties….

15. probably not worth mentioning the Bible – Jesus, a Jew, born in Bethlehem, visiting the Jewish Temple in Jerusalem (this is only 2000 years of history anyway….)

Note to Producers – make sure that when interviews are taking place that you loop some video showing ultra-left wing Norwegian doctors running after ambulances performing chest compression on live patients, and female Hamas supporters screaming uncontrollably about how their terrorist husbands were mercilessly martyred by the IDF. Remember, it really doesn’t matter what the interview says because people will remember the images

Neil Turner , Watford, UK (01.24.09)

again the israeli government fails,

i would give more credit to the DR argument about getting info from israeli, gazans, west bank people except the only thing coming out on our media is a one-sided pro Israeli government stance even when u can find that people disagree with them within israel,people counter there statements, prove them to be false. and what we hear in return is name calling.and that one-side bs thanks again onpoint for your listeners a different more accurate view on whats going on in light the wails and screams from the other side who often get there spin on everything.

point again the settlements need to stop yet there still building them, so this will continue to keep the pallys in a grey area while isreal takes as much if not all there land. Very sad.

JUST TODAY

Israel will continue to allow some construction in West Bank settlements despite US calls for a freeze on its work, a government spokesman says.

Mark Regev said the fate of the settlements should be decided in peace negotiations with the Palestinians.

His remarks appear to be a rebuff to US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, who said all such activity should cease.

Her comments came hours before Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas was due to meet US President Barack Obama.

Mrs Clinton said on Wednesday there must be no exceptions to President Obama’s demands for Israel’s settlement work to stop.

Speaking to reporters after a meeting with her Egyptian counterpart, Mrs Clinton said that the president was “very clear” with Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at their recent meeting that there should be a stop to all settlements.

Illegal outpost next to Kokhav Ha Shahar settlement
Challenge of Israeli settlements
Read your comments

“Not some settlements, not outposts, not natural growth exceptions,” Mrs Clinton said.

“We think it is in the best interest of the effort that we are engaged in that settlement expansion cease.”

Correspondents say it is the first time in years that US officials have been so vocal in calling for a settlement freeze in the Palestinian territories.

Stumbling block

Mr Regev said on Thursday that the future of the settlements would be decided only when peace negotiations were held with the Palestinians.

FROM BBC WORLD SERVICE

More from BBC World Service

“In the interim period, we have to allow normal life in those communities to continue,” he said.

He was echoing comments made by Mr Netanyahu on Sunday.

Mr Netanyahu said no new settlements would be built, but natural growth in existing settlements should be allowed.

“There is no way that we are going to tell people not to have children or to force young people to move away from their families,” he was quoted as telling the Israeli cabinet.

WEST BANK SETTLEMENTS
Construction of settlements began in 1967, shortly after the Six Day War
Some 280,000 Israelis now live in the 121 officially-recognised settlements in the West Bank
A further 190,000 Israelis live in settlements in Palestinian East Jerusalem
The largest West Bank settlement is Ma’ale Adumim, where more than 30,000 people were living in 2005
There are a further 102 unauthorised outposts in the West Bank which are not officially recognised by Israel
The population of West Bank settlements has been growing at a rate of 5-6% since 2001
Source: Peace Now

However, he pledged to remove makeshift outposts in the West Bank – small settlements, sometimes with only a few people – that the Israeli government itself considers illegal.

“We will take care of them, if possible by dialogue,” he said. “There is no doubt that we have committed ourselves to deal with them.”

The issue of Jewish settlements in the West Bank is one of the biggest stumbling blocks to President Obama’s bid to resume the Middle East peace process.

The Palestinian Authority says it has ruled out restarting peace talks with Israel unless it freezes settlement activity and removes all roadblocks in the West Bank.

President Abbas is expected to reiterate the conditions during talks at the White House with Mr Obama.

Some 500,000 Jews live in more than 100 settlements built since Israel’s 1967 occupation of the West Bank and Arab East Jerusalem. The settlements are illegal under international law, though Israel disputes this.

Under the US-backed 2003 roadmap peace plan, Israel is obliged to end all settlement activity, specifically including natural growth.

The plan also requires the Palestinian Authority to crack down on militants who seek to attack Israelis.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/8071491.stm

Mike, the sleuth — thank you. I am wondering if ALL your info is from the BBC World Service.
I am wondering what the proportion of settlers to Palestinians would be if geographical boundaries (pre-1967) were set. Mike gives 280,000 Israelis in West Bank settlements, 190,000 more Israelis in Palestinian East Jerusalem, plus those uncounted in outposts. How many Palestinians? How many Palestinians would there be — if many of the million in Israel moved to a newly constituted Palestinian state.
If the settlers were told they were under Palestinian authority, that Ha-aretz (The Land) is not under Jewish aegis (this part anyway), like it or not, then what? All hell breaks loose? Likely, likely.
Then comes a humongous job of leadership, and so far, leadership has been pretty much futile, it seems to me. Leadership that says only violence works, and the social services and organizations that work, all are convinced violence is the only way —
I’m thinking of Abraham Lincoln. Pretty bleak prospects, but humanity “has it in them” somewhere.

Cynically speaking, if I were an Israeli politician, I would see to it that Gaza had no Jewish settlers so that if the West Bank became part of an “integrated” Palestine, with the settlers voting citizens, then at least Gaza would be a “state” thereof that was Jew-free.
Wait a minute, I’m upside-down on that. But I’m upside on West Bank too. The more settlers and the worse the Palestinians are treated, the far worse it will be once the situation is “stabilized,” as eventually I think it must be.

Of course many people are going to be pro-Palestinian by default, because the truth of the matter is nearly overwhelming; that is to say that there needs to be an Islamic reformation.

I bought a second-hand book outlining all the “trees” of Islamic dynasties. Without being anything like a scholar — far, far from it — it seems Islam has as much a political side to it as Christianity in the time of the Holy Roman Empire. And the current struggle would be pulling apart the political from the religious. Christianity — “King of the Jews”? Remember? — was violently assaulted for the very suggestion of power other than political being exercised in the Roman dominion.
This his where it’s so hard for a non-Muslim to conceptualize. Islam spread by political dominion, and by violence; I think it was conceived in a political hotbed and had to be like that.
Again, pretty bleak prospects. The Muslim poets maybe come as close to the saints and prophets of Christianity (which kept Christianity vital, I think) as I am at all familiar with, as close as fertilizers of the faith.
But I am wondering how to listen for that Islamic revolution. (On Point, listen up.) I am convinced it will come, or the internal weaknesses of Islam will doom it, to who knows what political and cultural effect.
I suppose Christianity was under a similar threat about the time Martin Luther hammered his theses on the church door in Germany.

Ellen, exactly.

In Islamic ideology, there’s no separation between mosque and state, and it’s a complete package – social, political and religious – with (theoretically) no choice available to followers to pick-and-choose. Anyone (like Martin Luther in Christianity) who goes against that aspect or criticizes it is termed a heretic/apostate and the punishment for apostasy is death (that’s why the Muslim guy who converted to Christianity in Afghanistan a while ago and was escorted out under heavy protection, had to plead insanity – otherwise he would’ve been killed for leaving his Islamic faith). And that’s exactly why the prospects of reform in Islam from within are so slim – it needs outside pressure. Muslims who do dare to speak out – like Salman Rushdie and Ayaan Hirsi Ali are ignored by the liberals, or Muslims like Ibn Warraq have to write anonymously. Look up the concept of fitna which works great as a muzzle.

And the softer versions of Islam, like Sufism, are under threat by the radical Wahhabi version in Afghanistan and Pakistan, because Sufism is considered as impure and going against the teachings.

I’m glad that you have taken steps to learn about Islamic ideology – most liberals don’t even bother to do that and keep parroting their “Islam is a religion of peace” mantra out of ignorance and some misguided sense of equating all cultures. Only if they took the trouble to learn about what Islam says and how compatible it is with their own liberal values…

It always astounds me how “out there” the comments become concerning this issue. R.M. and Vermont, I’d highly recommend reading Righteous Victims by Benny Morris. This copiously footnoted book attacks many of the myths that surround the Israel/Palestine story with material to previously closed historical archives.
Regardless of one’s perspective, I hope most can agree that demography will eventually dictate that Israel as it currently is constituted cannot stand.

[...] Drs. Rashid Khalidi and Juan Cole on NPR’s On Point Jump to Comments This is a conversation worth listening to: [...]

Rievler what do you suggest ?

hi Ellen ,

i site bbc as a sources because i find it to have a higher standard of jounralistic standing both in the u.k. u.s. and world, least comparably and who will talk to both sides of conflicts to get a more in depth view instead of (GOOD/BAD spin on it) and even under pressure from other countries not to do so. seems when i site local israeli human right and news papers we have some on here devalue them.(understandable) yet when we have some say there not building settlements, and not occupied land with the facts says otherwise i provided where i got my info from.

u.s. often does not state actually both sides and often say to political talking points(some are worst than others) cnn does as i seen have the abiltiy to sometimes reports whats really going on with less fear of attacks from lobbying groups. as for israeli news sources, the onces critizing israel is almost never heard or played around the world and the ones that dont are the ones sound bitted around the world and also since the major news sources often times has to get the ok from th IDF before reporting or if there going to report. so that it off the bat should be suspect. least npr and bbc will have statements saying it messed up unlike some in the u.s. and israeli.

I found this if u like to read up on

Background history zionism *

Zionism did not spring full blown from a void with the creation of the Zionist movement in 1897. Jews had maintained a connection with Palestine, both actual and spiritual, even after the Bar Kochba revolt in 135, when large numbers of Jews were exiled from Roman Palestine, the remains of their ancient national home. The Jewish community in Palestine revived and, under Muslim rule, is estimated to have numbered as many as 300,000 about 1000 AD, prior to the Crusades. The Crusaders killed most of the Jewish population of Palestine or forced them into exile, so that only about 1,000 families remained after the reconquest of Palestine by Saladin. The Jewish community in Palestine waxed and waned with the vicissitudes of conquest and economic hardship, and invitations by different Turkish rulers to displaced European Jews to settle in Tiberias and Hebron. At different times there were sizeable Jewish communities in Tiberias, Safed, Hebron and Jerusalem, and numbers of Jews living in Nablus and Gaza. A few original Jews remained in the town of Peki’in, families that had lived there continuously since ancient times.

In the Diaspora, religion became the medium for preserving Jewish culture and Jewish ties to their ancient land. Jews prayed several times a day for the rebuilding of the temple, celebrated agricultural feasts and called for rain according to the seasons of ancient Israel, even in the farthest reaches of Russia. The ritual plants of Sukkoth were imported from the Holy Land at great expense.

From time to time, small numbers of Jews came to settle in Palestine in answer to rabbinical or messianic calls, or fleeing persecution in Europe. Beginning about 1700, groups of followers led by rabbis reached Palestine from Europe and the Ottoman Empire with various programs. For example, Rabbi Yehuda Hehasid and his followers settled in Jerusalem about 1700, but the rabbi died suddenly, and eventually, an Arab mob, angered over unpaid debts, destroyed the synagogue the group had built and banned all European (Ashkenazy) Jews from Jerusalem. Rabbis Luzatto and Ben-Attar led a relatively large immigration about 1740. Other groups and individuals came from Lithuania and Turkey and different countries in Eastern Europe.

At no time between the Roman exile and the rise of Zionism was there a movement to settle the holy land that engaged the main body of European or Eastern Jews. The condition of Jews both in Europe and Eastern countries made such a movement unimaginable. Many, however, were attracted to various false Messiahs such as Shabetai Tzvi, who promised to restore Jews to their land. For most Jews, the connection with the ancient homeland and with Jerusalem remained largely cultural and spiritual, and return to the homeland was a hypothetical event that would occur with the coming of the Messiah at an unknown date in the far future. European Jews lived, for the most part in ghettos. They did not get a general education, and did not generally engage in practical trades that might prepare them for living in Palestine. Most of the communities founded by these early settlers met with economic disaster, or were disbanded following earthquakes, anti-Jewish riots or outbreaks of disease. The Jewish communities of Safed, Tiberias, Jerusalem and Hebron were typically destroyed by natural and man-made disasters and repopulated several times, never supporting more than a few thousand persons each at their height. The Jews of Palestine, numbering about 17,000 by the mid-19th century, lived primarily on charity – Halukka donations, with only a very few engaging in crafts trade or productive work.

http://www.mideastweb.org/zionism.htm

Tom: One of the best shows I have heard on the Palestinian-Israeli situation. I am not usually a big fan of your program, but this one was SUPERB. The guests presented cogent and well-informed and dispassionate viewpoints usually missing in the discussion of this conflict. I think some of the comments already posted help prove that if anyone present even a ’slightly sympathetic’ view of the Palestinians the pro-Israeli lobby will brand you as “anti-Semitic”. This fact has suppressed all civil conversation on the subject and your program was the first I have heard that actually gave a voice to a balanced view (to those who really wanted to listen to the ‘other side’ and not block it out). This region has caused the world so many problems — perhaps it is time for the UN to revisit the situation – since the UN created the state of Israel, perhaps they should ‘create’ the a Palestinian state giving them the exact boundaries originally meant for an Arab state — end of story — and then impose this decision. The only other solution is to create ONE state with Arabs and Jews and make them live together — period.

R.M.
I hope you enjoy Righteous Victims as much as I did. Regardless of where one stands on this issue, I think you’ll be impressed by the level of scholarship that went into this book. Notwithstanding, Morris and other ‘revisionist’ historians have certainly come in for some criticism. When there are so many sacred cows, it hard not be condemned for making hamburger! Morris has a new book out in April called One State, Two States which concerns the debate of potential solutions. I haven’t read it yet, but am anxiously waiting the paperback or my library getting a copy.

Dow: You state, “…perhaps it is time for the UN to revisit the situation – since the UN created the state of Israel, perhaps they should ‘create’ the a Palestinian state…” In fact, this is exactly what the UN did in 1948 by declaring that there were two peoples in the land, both with legitimate historical claims and that there should therefore be two states. The Jews accepted, while the Palestinians violently rejected the compromise and 6 Arab countries invaded with the openly stated purpose of massacring the Jews!

Alex: I am aware that the UN created the state of Israel and ‘an Arab’ state (that is why I went on to say that perhaps NOW the UN should revisit this decision and create ‘a Palestinian state’ with the exact boundaries set aside in 1948 for an Arab state and have all the members of the UN recognize it (and give it E. Jerusalem as its capital). The precedent has been set and Israel now exists and I think it would be easiest solution. Yes, the Arab governments did not ‘agree’ to a Jewish state being artificially imposed on the region (the reason for attacking Israel), but the Arab League has now said it would give full recognition of Israel if it returns to the pre-existing boundaries (afterall, recognition by their Arab neighbors is what they have sought for so long — it is a mystery to me why Israel does not accept this long sought after recognition and use it as a basis of moving forward).

some history i found

The Second Aliyah and Socialist Zionism

The “political Zionism” approach originally tried by Montefiore, Pinsker and Herzl, which attempted to obtain a Jewish homeland from colonial powers, failed to attain results at least initially. Meanwhile, however, practical settlement efforts gradually increased the Jewish population of Palestine from about 25,000 in 1882 to approximately 85,000 to 100,000 just prior to World War I.

A fresh wave of anti-Semitic pogroms in Russia provided the impetus for a second wave of immigration, beginning about 1904 and called the Second Aliyah. At the same time, the rise socialist – Zionist stirrings had inspired several socialist Zionist movements. Thousands of new immigrants dedicated to the conquest of labor ethic and socialist ideals arrived in Palestine. Their Zionism was typified by the thinking of men like Ber Borochov andA.D. Gordon,. Hapoel Hatzair, (“The young worker”) was founded by A.D. Gordon, Poalei Tziyon (“workers of Zion”) , and later Hashomer Hatzair (“the young guard) were inspired by Ber Borochov. Borochov, an ideologue of the Poalei Tziyon movement, did not cite anti-Semitism as the basis or motivation of Zionism. According to him, the Diaspora produced aberrant social conditions that made Jews economically inferior and politically helpless. The normal organization of society was a pyramid, according to Borochov, with a large body of workers and smaller groups of intelligentsia, land owners and capitalists. The Diaspora had created an ‘inverted pyramid’ in Jewish society, with no Jewish peasant or worker class. Self-liberation of the Jews would come about by proletarianization of the Jews in their homeland, and the nascent Jewish proletariat would join the socialist international. Similarly, A.D. Gordon, inspired by 19th century romanticism, called for a Jewish return to the soil and virtually made a religion of work. These ideas fused into the ideals of “productivization” (returning the Jews, who engaged mostly in professional and mercantile trades, to productive labor) and “conquest of labor” ( Kibbush Haavoda). “Conquest of labor” later took on additional meanings. (See also Labor Zionism and Socialist Zionism )
Labor Zionism – Meeting of Hapoel Hatzair in 1909
Labor Zionism – Detail of photo showing delegates to the fourth meeting of the Hapoel Hatzair, about 1909. Click here for full photo and more about Labor Zionism and socialist Zionism.

The new immigrants arrived with the ideals of socialist Zionism, but reality was not favorable to implementing those ideas. The Zionist movement attempted to find them work. but the new immigrants , who had no training in agriculture and poor physical stamina, were unable to compete with Arab peasants. Arabs certainly would not hire Jewish workers, who could not work well and could not speak Arabic. Arab labor was also preferred by the plantation and vineyard owners of the first Aliya. Arabs were experienced and hard workers, and were able to work for much lower wages because they were often members of an extended family that made its main income from sharecropping. The plantation owners had also developed a superior colonialist mentality which suited the hiring of “natives,” and clashed with the egalitarian ideas and social demands of the newly arrived socialists.

The socialist Zionist movements tried to force plantation owners to grant higher wages, and also began to insist that plantation owners hire only Jewish workers. This aspect of “conquest of labor” was controversial within the socialist-Zionist movements because it engendered lack of solidarity with the Arab working class and was discriminatory. One labor Zionist leader wrote:

“How can Jews, who demand emancipation in Russia, rob rights and act selfishly toward other workers upon coming to Eretz Israel? If it is possible for many a people to hide fairness and justice behind cannon smoke, how and behind what shall we hide fairness and justice? We should absolutely not deceive ourselves with terrible visions. We shall never possess cannons, even if the goyim shall bear arms against one another for ever. Therefore, we cannot but settle in our land fairly and justly, to live and let live. ”
(Meir Dizengoff (writing as “Dromi”) “The Workers Question,” Hatzvi, September 21, 22, 1909)

At the same time, Conquest of Labor was a central part of Labor Zionist ideology, as a means of rebuilding the Jewish people, not a discriminatory ideology. A.D. Gordon wrote:

But labour is the only force which binds man to the soil… it is the basic energy for the creation of national culture. This is what we do not have, but we are not aware of missing it. We are a people without a country, without a national living language, without a national culture. We seem to think that if we have no labour it does not matter – let Ivan, John or Mustafa do the work, while we busy ourselves with producing a culture, with creating national values and with enthroning absolute justice in the world.
(A.D. Gordon, “Our Tasks Ahead” 1920)

The boycott of Arab labor, only partly successful, was carried out reluctantly as a matter of necessity, and because the establishment of Jews as a class of colonial plantation owners seemed worse than the alternative. The discriminatory program of “conquest of labor” also provoked bitterness among some Arabs, particularly watchmen who lost their jobs to Jews. In the main however, the “conquest of labor” movement was initially unsuccessful, nor could it have much real influence on the economic prospects of Arabs. Only a few thousand Jewish workers were involved. Gershon Shafir (Land, Labor and the Origins of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict, 1882–1914, University of California Press, 1996) estimates that about 10,000 such workers passed through Palestine in the second Aliya, many leaving in discouragement. Other sources claim there were about 3,000 workers out of approximately 33,000 who came to Palestine in the second Aliya. Because of the wage differential and because of the expertise of Arab workers, Arab labor continued to find employment in Jewish settlements. It was only with the massive Jewish immigration of the 1930s, coupled with Arab unrest and sabotage attempts, that Jewish workers began to replace Arab workers in most of the Jewish economy. Of course, few Jews worked in the Arab economy.

The kibbutz collective settlements were started as a practical method of settling Jewish laborers on the land and overcoming the preferences of plantation owners for Arab labor. A small group of Jewish immigrants was settled in an economic cooperative in Sejera, later founding Kibbutz Degania in 1909. The arrangement, originally thought to be temporary, proved to be practical, as well as suited to the socialist ideals of the new settlers and the practical requirements of Zionism. It soon inspired several other kibbutzim (collective farms). The kibbutz movement was to become the backbone of Labor Zionism in Palestine, and eventually provided political and military leadership. Kibbutzim provided ideal places for hiding arms from the British and recruiting and training troops, as well as for organizing local defense and guarding borders.
Zionism: Chaim Weizmann, First President of Israel

The Zionist movement did not give up efforts to find a political solution. The political Zionism and practical settlement approaches were merged into “Synthetic Zionism” advocated by Chaim Weizmann . The efforts ultimately bore fruit in the Balfour Declaration, a promise by Britain to further efforts for a Jewish national home in Palestine. and in the League of Nations Mandate,which give international sanction to the Jewish national home. Weizmann became head of the Zionist organization and later was the first President of Israel.

After ww1

Soon after World War I, Zionist leaders clearly recognized the problem. David Ben Gurion told members of the Va’ad Yishuv (the temporary governing body of the Jewish community in Palestine) in June 1919:

But not everybody sees that there is no solution to this question. No solution! There is a gulf; and nothing can bridge it…. I do not know what Arab will agree that Palestine should belong to the Jews…We. as a nation,. want this country to be ours; the Arabs, as a nation, want this country to be theirs.

(Benny Morris, Righteous Victims, Knopf 1999 Page 91)

In 1923, in his Iron Wall article, Jabotinsky replied to his own question. He asserted that agreement with the Arabs was impossible, because they:

…look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux looked upon his prairie. To think that the Arabs will voluntarily consent to the realization of Zionism in return for the cultural and economic benefits we can bestow on them is infantile.

Jabotinsky, was initially against expulsion of the Arabs, which he was “prepared to swear, for us and our descendants, that we will never [do]“. Rather in The Iron Wall, he claimed that the Jewish presence should be imposed by a strong defense that would show the Arabs that the Jews could not be forced out of Palestine. However, while The Iron Wall expressed a comprehensive philosophy, its practical background and intent were much more limited. Jabotinsky wanted the British authorities to allow the Jews to form a separate defensive force under British supervision, to combat attacks such as the riots that had occurred in 1920 and 1921. The British refused, and the Zionist organization resigned themselves to the British decision, but Jabotinsky wanted to continue with the formation of such a force. Though the Haganah defensive underground was founded in 1920 by Jabotinsky, it didn’t become a major project of the Zionist movement until after the riots of 1929. These riots, and not any intrinsic aspect of Zionist ideology, were the real trigger for the birth of militant Zionism as a political force, as well as the progressively more important role played by self-defense and military prowess in Zionist thought, action and society.

Meanwhile the Arab and Jewish communities grew progressively apart. Arabs refused to participate in a Palestinian local government which gave equal representation to the Jewish minority. The British, nearly bankrupt after WW I, insisted that the mandate should be self-sufficient. Mandate services were paid for from taxes paid by the Jewish and Arab inhabitants of Palestine. Additional services were funded by philanthropists from abroad and from membership dues in various organizations. Zionist philanthropy and organization far-outstripped what Palestinian Arabs could provide. Neither Arabs nor Jews wanted integrated schools. Zionist groups funded religious, secular and labor-Zionist educational networks for Jewish children in Hebrew, but few comparable schools were set up for Arabs. The Zionists founded the Histadruth Labor federation to encompass Jewish workers, providing Hebrew education, medical care, worker-owned enterprises and cultural facilities as well as representation of labor rights. No comparable association was created by the more numerous Arabs of Palestine, though the Histadruth made some efforts to organize Arab labor beginning in 1927, and the Palestine Communist party attempted to represent both Jewish and Arab labor.

As the conflict unfolded, attitudes hardened on both sides. Some Zionist factions called for expulsion or “transfer” of Arabs “voluntarily” or otherwise. Beginning with the Husseini clan led by Hajj Amin El Husseini, the Grand Mufti, different factions of Palestinian Arabs, successively allied themselves with Fascist Italy, Nazi Germany and, after WW II with communist countries. Arab rhetoric became increasingly colored by European anti-Semitism, and adopted many of the claims and ideas of Holocaust deniers such as Roger Garaudy as well as the anti-Zionist ideology of radical Jewish intellectuals.

The conflict was intensified and complicated by the 1948 war. About 700,000 Palestinian Arabs fled or were expelled during the war, and Israel did not allow them to return. Many Palestinian refugees were settled in camps under miserable conditions, where they have remained for several generations. The Israeli point of view had in mind the recent convulsions of World War II, and the exchange of populations that occurred when India and Pakistan were created. Most Israelis believed the Palestinians became refugees through their own fault. Their exile was the result of the war which the Palestinians themselves had started by rejection of the UN partition plan, just as, for example, the Germans of Sudetensland, who helped instigate the German occupation of Czechoslovakia, were eventually banished as the result of their own mischief. For the Arabs of Palestine, their Nakba, or catastrophe, vindicated their fears that the Zionists were bent on dispossessing them.

Zionism and the Conflict With Britain
yes terrorism from zionist as well

The British government increasingly understood that its promises to the Zionists and Mandate obligations were very unpopular in the Arab world. They split off a large part of the Palestine Mandate territory to form Transjordan and issued the Passfield White Paper that proposed limiting Jewish immigration to Palestine. The Passfield White Paper was quietly withdrawn under pressure from Zionists, from British public opinion and from the League of Nations. However, the British eventually did impose a limit on immigration. These policies turned the once-friendly British into antagonists of the Zionist movement. Labor Zionists and the Zionist Executive were in favor of moderate policies that would try to work around the British opposition to Zionism. A faction led by Ze’ev Jabotinsky believed in confronting the British and the Arabs, and if necessary, using force. In 1923, Jabotinsky split from the main Zionist movement and formed the Revisionist movement. In 1925, an Arab Revolt (The Great Uprising) broke out in Palestine, triggered by rising Jewish immigration and systematic agitation by extremists. In 1937, the British proposed tentatively to partition Palestine in the Peel report. This caused additional divisions in the Zionist movement. Some believed in a bi-national Jewish Arab state and objected to the idea, contained in the Peel recommendations, of transferring Arabs “voluntarily” out of the territory to be allotted to the Jewish state. The revisionists and religious Zionists, on the other hand, objected to giving up any part of the territory of Palestine. Subsequently the British issued the White Paper of 1939, severely limiting Jewish immigration. The Arab revolt and the reaction to it crystallized the Zionist ethos of self-defense and emphasis on military service. The Revisionists formed the Irgun underground army, which attacked British soldiers and administrators and perpetrated terror attacks against Arabs in retaliation for Arab attacks on Jews. Atrocities committed by the Arabs, as well as counter-terror by Jewish groups, inculcated in both Jews and Arabs the idea that any means at all may be used against the enemy, even though the Hagannah officially maintained a military ethic of “purity of arms” – forbidding needless violence. The Arab revolt and the Peel report also legitimized, to some extent, the idea of “transfer,” and solidified and entrenched the idea that conflict between Arabs and Jews in Palestine was inevitable.

Anti-Zionism

Anti-Zionism is often defined as “opposition to the existence of Israel,” but that definition is a historical distortion and probably detracts from understanding the nature of anti-Zionism and its diverse ideological roots. It is true that anti-Zionists are necessarily opposed to the existence of a Jewish state, but it is not the essence of their ideology. Anti-Zionism existed long before there was a Jewish state and long before the Zionist movement formally adopted the goal of founding an independent Jewish state in 1942. Anti-Zionists were and are opposed to Zionism for a variety of reasons. Assimilationist Jews denied that there is a “Jewish people.”

Ultra-orthodox Jews are anti-Zionist because, while they recognize the existence of the Jewish people, they believe that redemption of the Jews must come through the agency of the Messiah rather than through any actions of the Jews, and that certainly it cannot come about through the agency of a non-religious political organization such as Zionism. (See Jews Against Zionism – the Neturei Karta Jewish anti-Zionism Anti-Zionism of Orthodox and establishment Judaism

Arab nationalists are anti-Zionists because Zionism conflicted with their nationalism, though Feisal himself envisaged cooperation with the Zionists.

ews who sought to assimilate in their own countries claimed that they were loyal citizens of a different faith, sometimes styling themselves “of the Mosaic persuasion” as did early reform Jews (see Reform Jewish anti-Zionism )They felt that the Zionist movement and the concept of a “Jewish People” would raise questions about their own loyalty, and they resented the fact that Zionists often spoke as though they represented all Jews. This movement was particularly prevalent in Germany, where Jews were staunch supporters of German nationalism. Valuable insight into the prevailing ideologies of the time can be gained from Amos Elon’s book, “The Pity of it All” (Henry Holt, 2002) which chronicles the tragic history of German Jewry. At one point, the reform Jewish movement went so far as to systematically remove all references to the Holy Land and Jerusalem from their liturgy. A large segment of ultraorthodox Jews were displeased by the secular ideas that dominated Zionism, and insisted that the rebuilding of Israel must await the coming of the messiah. In Europe, the agitation of assimilationist and ultraorthodox Jews helped to actively block Zionist rescue efforts in the 1930s, when it began to be apparent that Nazism would soon make Europe very dangerous for Jews. Jewish communists were and are opposed to Zionism because Marxism posited the disappearance of the Jews as a historic anomaly, once international atheistic communism triumphed over nationalist particularism, and religion, the opium of the people, died out. In the USSR, as part of his “nationalities” policy, which assimilated or murdered numerous national groups, Stalin tried to handle the Jewish problem by creating an autonomous Jewish republic in the wastelands of Birobidjan. This project was never supported very seriously and was later abandoned. Though the USSR supported the creation of the state of Israel, Stalin was opposed to Zionism inside Russia and the USSR suppressed Zionist activities and at times persecuted Jews as well as Zionists.

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med a very negative connotation for those who oppose the occupation. The word “Zionism” in the sense of support for settlers is used both by right wing Zionist extremists, and by anti-Zionists. Right wing Zionist extremists insist that withdrawal from the occupied territories will mean the “end of Zionism.” Anti-Zionists insist that “expansionism” is part of Zionist ideology. Historically, this view does not seem to have ideological support, since “Greater Israel” was the ideology of the breakaway religious movement created after 1967, and was never the ideology of mainstream Zionism except perhaps for a few decades following the Six Day war. Messianism was part of proto-Zionism, but the Zionist movement was pragmatic in all that it said and did. Expansionism became popular as a result of historical accidents, and not because of ideology. The territory that might be allotted to the Jewish state shrank during the British mandate, creating a sort of irredentism. Rather than being friendly neighbors, it became apparent that the Arab countries would be hostile, generating a desire for “strategic depth” to protect against invasion. It was easy for Israeli governments to say they would return territories for peace, and at the same continue to build Greater Israel, since peace or anything approaching it appeared to be a remote abstraction.

A part of the religious Zionist movement grafted itself on to the temporary realities created after the 6 day war, and evolved a radical messianic ideology. They insisted that they, and only they, represent the “real” Zionism. A quiet coup had transformed Zionism. Unfortunately, a considerable part of the world took them at their word. The image of Zionism in the world was transformed from that of a progressive movement of liberation to a movement of fanatics who wanted to create a religious state and disenfranchise a native population.

Lastly

Disillusionment and Zionist Counter-Revolution
- However, the dream of Greater Israel collided with hard realities. If the conquered territories were kept, the Arabs of Palestine would soon be a majority between the river and the sea, making a democratic Jewish state impossible. Tens of thousands of IDF soldiers were needed to guard 8,000 settlers against Palestinian terrorism in Gaza. Israelis were confronted with images of Zionist soldiers destroying houses, uprooting trees and killing children as “collateral damage.” This was not the Zionism of the school books. Messianism and wishful thinking aside, the state created by flesh and blood was faced with the facts of Palestinian demography, military necessity, humanitarian values and international commitments.

The resolution of this conflict within Zionism is unfolding before our eyes. It has created an earthquake in Israeli politics, splitting the ruling Likud party, and it has generated a counter-revolution in Zionism that is overthrowing the coup of the Greater Israel supporters. Israel withdrew from Gaza, but Zionism did not end. IDF and Israel police used force to destroy an illegal outpost, but Zionism survived that too. The changes do not come without a price. A residue of the religious Zionist movement have become embittered anti-Zionists who fight against the state. The transformation is not yet complete. (see commentaries: The real self-hating Jews: the paradoxical tragedy of extremists and Avram Burg on the future of Religious Zionism )

Post-Zionism – Beginning in the 1980s, some Israeli historians and sociologists began to question facts about the official history of Israel and Zionism, as well as the Zionist ideology. They reasoned that Zionism had accomplished its purpose in creating the Jewish state, and that now it was time to move on. They posited that Israel and the Zionists had a large share of the blame for the animosity between Jews and Arabs, and had in fact, ignored the existence of the Arabs in Palestine and then dispossessed the Palestinians by force. This reasoning was supported by new histories, that talked frankly about less savory aspects of Israeli history that had been previously ignored. The new historians made a case that at least part of Zionism had always envisioned expulsion or transfer of the Arabs, and described massacres and expulsions which took place in 1948, often claiming that these were part of a deliberate policy. The historians claimed that these new facts were revealed by declassified archives. In fact, the most important facts supposedly “revealed” by the new historians were known to all Israelis who wanted to know them, though perhaps not in detail, and not presented in the particular way that new historians presented them. Facts can be interpreted in different ways. The ideas behind the facts, called by some “post-Zionism,” do not necessarily form a coherent ideology and their practitioners do not generally see themselves as members of a movement or followers of a distinct philosophy. Some “post-Zionists” like Ilan Pappe are indistinguishable from anti-Zionists, while others, like Benny Morris, use the same facts to arrive at very different conclusions that might support a militant Zionist ideology. Post-Zionism attained a wide popularity for a while, but fell into eclipse after peace negotiations between Palestinians and Israel failed and violence flared up in September of 2000.

“On Point” this was first I’m sure! A discussion of the Middle East with two guests who both speak Arabic fluently!! Thank you!

All’s quiet on the western front . Lets see how much noise we will hear about these civilians:

Paper: Over 20,000 died in Sri Lanka rebels’ defeat

More than 20,000 civilians reportedly killed in final days of military op to defeat Tamil Tigers

Reuters 05.29.09,

More than 20,000 Tamil civilians were killed in the final days of Sri Lanka’s military operation to defeat Tamil Tigers rebels, The Times newspaper reported on Friday.

Sri Lanka’s authorities say their forces stopped using heavy weapons on April 27 in a no-fire zone where an estimated 100,000 Tamil civilians were sheltered and blame civilian casualties on rebels hiding among the civilians, the paper said.

Citing confidential UN documents it acquired, The Times said the civilian death toll in the no-fire zone soared from late April, with around 1,000 civilians killed daily until May 19. That was the day after Vellupillai Prabhakaran, leader of the Liberation Tigers of Tamil Eelam (LTTE), was killed.

The final civilian death toll could be more than 20,000, said the paper.

UN High Commissioner of Human Rights Navi Pillay has said the LTTE recruited child soldiers and used civilians as human shields during the conflict, while the military had indiscriminately shelled areas packed with civilians.

Both sides have denied the allegations.

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Sri Lanka has called a Western-led push for a rights and war crimes probe hypocrisy and a violation of its right to destroy the LTTE, which is listed as a terrorist organisation by more than 30 countries.

The United Nations estimates that between 80,000 and 100,000 people died in what was one of Asia’s longest modern wars, erupting in earnest in 1983 when the Tigers began to fight for a separate state for Sri Lanka’s minority Tamils.

Anyone looking to see the thread here will wonder where the Palestinians figure in all this. I am still reading Mike’s posts — thanks so much. But in terms of loss of life. What was it 20 million lost in Russia in World War II, something like 9 million civilian; not to mention the Jews in World War II, who were civilians. In my town we mourn any loss of life, civilian or military. Three bodies have been found in our swamps, a mystery. How are we to know if they were lives given in good causes, or people dead of attempting some rash feat.
A big issue to be addressed might be the responsibility of those with plenty of food, plenty of organized defenses, to those who lack them. Bill Gates would be one who has thought a lot about that.

re: Tom Ashbrook on Abbas Goes to Washington
A comment for Mr Ashbrook: when organizing a broadcast around the subject of Palestinians, their plight, issues, and future AND when inviting guests known to be sympathetic to the subject WHILE CRITICAL OF ISRAEL, I would expect you to keep the conversation FOCUSED on the Palestinian issues, instead of criticizing Israel.
It is, to say the least, disappointing. A real discussion would have made it clear that no matter what the issues are on the israeli side, the Palestinians will still have to deal with accepting the rights of others to exist, being able to self determine and choose a leadership that will represent their interests and not allow themselves to be used by extremist fractions in the Arab world, and, to paraphrase Golda Meir, start to love their children more than they hate Jews. Again, please remember to talk to Palestinians about Palestinian issues and Israelis about Israel to help you stay away from journalism based on bashing. thank you

Tom, you often bubble over in verbal enthusiasm via a barrage of questions. You need to change your name to “Question Man”.
Here’s a suggestion: Ask fewer questions. Make them more pointed and demand answers with some explanation. Follow-up where necessary.
You had some idiot from Georgia not even pick up your sardonic question about “Bush’s strategy”, but you carried on like the guy had made a legitimate comment.

Then there was much room for a point-counterpoint with Khalidi who played that tired distortion: “Jews really have a beef, not with Arabs, but with European Christians who exterminated them.” Last time I checked, Jews are a Semitic people with ancestral roots to the Mid East. Hatred for Israel propagated by Arab leaders is mostly a convenient distraction from the socioeconomic nightmare in much of the Arab world, having little to do with Israel. In fact, as noted above in places like Haifa, Arabs are happy to live in non-jihadist Israel and enjoy its technologicanl advancements.

Khalidi and his “awe shucks” sidekick, Cole, who needs to change his first name from Juan to Ali-Akbar, needed a pointed question about the Munich Olympics massacre of the Israeli team. I’d predict they would have figured that had to have been a justification for some Israeli “atrocity”, probably the Yom Kippur War, which hadn’t even occurred yet.

Free Gilad Shalit ,let the red cross visit him.

Dow: I am pleased that you recognize that the Arabs rejected the right of Jews to self-determination in 1948, but then you go on to say that Israel was artificially imposed on the region. Sound racist to me, or is that a charge that can only be made against Israelis? Do you mean that Jews are not “natural” inhabitants? Jews have lived in the region for more than 3,000 years, and not only in ancient times, as Israel-haters like to charge. For example, by 1850, Jews were already a majority of the population of Jerusalem. You should not be surprised that Israeli Jews are skeptical of the Arab Peace Plan, particularly when it is couched as a long list of demands including requiring Israel to apologize for not allowing the Arabs to snuff it out. Equally galling is the demand tha the Jewish holy places be under Arab control. Can you imagine the holy places in Mecca under non-Muslim control? This is an appaling demand particularly taking into account that when the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem was conqured by Arabs in 1948 all the synagogues were razed and the Jewish cemetary turned into a latrine! Incidentally, why is the Arab plan a better “way forward” than the Clinton plan of 2000 which Israel accepted and Arafat rejected?

Can Arabs be racist? Or Muslims be Muslimists, whatever that is? I can see the two sides stacked up in the usual way, each side, with various reference points over decades, centuries, mullenia of territorial conflict. Each has been hurt; neither trusts the other. There was a post or so here: is there some way a conversation On Point could be had about how Palestine can proceed ahead, proceed without collaboration with extremist groups? If so, how. I have heard I think somewhere on Public Radio about the many nonprofits attempting to keep the Palestinians afloat. Something about either groups affiliated with Islam or Judaism actually getting in the way. I heard Obama sayint to Abbas that there were initiatives to help I think commercial enterprises in the West Bank that he hoped would be fostered. It is certainly interesting to read in Mike’s posts how Zionism came about with returning Jews realizing they did not have the skills to settle in Israel without the assistance of those already there. The kibbutzim was an effort at self-sufficiency in an already settled land. Then there is the story of how Jewish groups funneled a lot of aid to Jews for schools and social organizations, greatly to the disadvantage of the Arab population, who didn’t want Jewish education anyway. And things had fallen apart in that sort of way a decade or so before 1948. Nowadays, Israel gets outside help from moneyed Jewish groups, I suppose, as well as from the U.S. government. And I thought the Arab nations had the wherewithal to do the same for the non-Arabs. Arab nations not funneled through organizations that alienate just about everybody.
We’ll see what Obama has to say in Egypt.
I think the problem zeroed in on this thread has to do with whether a Palestinian identity can evolve that can stand up to its challenges: that of facing down the Israelis where necessary without sort of “stepping in it.” Can they be Muslim in their own particular way, more democratic (because they will have to accommodate a lot of vocal Zionists among their population), one more tolerant, I guess. Can it be one that deals with the modern world not with the authoritarian methods turned to in so many Arab lands (don’t quote me; I’m not a scholar), but using tools forged in the crucible of the current situation?
What can modern Islam be? Consider Lebanon.
I read that Baghdad (in Prince of the Marshes) was a third Jewish. Doesn’t say when. Many Christians have been leaving — we heard that during the Pope’s recent visit. Is Arab identity going to get more exclusive? Given the “treatment” which is the fallout from Israel’s experience, an us-versus-them Arab identity gets a boost, and I’d guess is more on the rise than receding. This at a time when global cooperation is so badly needed for so many things.
I am curious about Indonesia, where Obama grew up. When did the extremist Islam surface there and why.
But what can Palestinians do? What can Egypt do to help the situation (for instance).
I keep asking questions the better to give the “panel” out there time to think a bit in private, before “thinking in public,” since thinking, like our clothing, should be more careful in bright lights.

Study: Most Turks don’t want Jewish neighbors

Istanbul university study suggests Turks have low tolerance for diverse lifestyles; 52% would not Christian neighbors

Associated Press

A study suggests Turks have low tolerance for diverse lifestyles as three in four respondents said they would not want to live next to an atheist or anyone drinking alcohol.

The study by Istanbul’s Bahcesehir University is meant to gauge radicalism and extremism in Turkey.

Results published in Sunday’s Milliyet newspaper indicate 64% of Turks would not want Jewish neighbors, 52% would not Christian neighbors, 67% would not want to live next to an unmarried couple and 43% would not want American neighbors.

The survey is based on interviews with 1,715 people selected randomly from 34 cities between April 12 and May 3. No margin of error was given.

On Wednesday a Turkish court on Wednesday sentenced a man to five months in prison for “insulting a section of society” after he put up a banner saying Jews and Armenians were not allowed to enter his business.