I wish the guests’ beats were a bit more focused on the issue area of the dominant story of the week.

“Democrats defy Obama on Guantanamo.” Looks like Reid is coming around.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/05/21/reid-obama-speech-opens-w_n_206418.html

I’m amazed he can be a leader in Congress and have no ability to lead on anything. He takes the temperature of public sentiment after speech and changes direction.

I continue to be impressed by Barack Obama, he’s a leader who is willing to lead, even when the political road is bumpy.

This week was a complete disaster for Obama. The (Democratic) Senate voted 90-6 to keep Guantanamo open, Cheney’s speech on Friday was far more convincing than Obama’s speech, and a new Gallup poll says 51% of Americans are against abortion. Obama is clearly not cut out to President. His policies are radical and he will only make America less safe from terrorists.

Four “Terrorists” in Bronx

These guys had criminal records and they were unemployed; and perhaps did not have good chances of having any kind of legitimate income for the next few years.

Does anybody how much money the FBI informants offered to these guys for being part of such a plot?

Mayor Bloomberg had access to all the information about the plot … why did he use such inflamatory comments when the plot was first announced?

Joe B

The election is over. Please stop scaring everybody. Today’s topic is not about Fear, it is about Hope and getting along with each other.

You also posted:
Obama will more than likely set up diplomatic relations with terrorist groups such as Hamas and Hezbollah (he has called for negotiating with the Taliban). How insane is that?

Posted by Joe B., on May 19th, 2009 at 1:28 am EDT

obama is losing the support of is own party on Gitmo. He is dividing the nation on this issue and he was suppose to unite us. Strange how people change once they get elected.

Tom needs to apologize to his listeners for flogging Ed Andrews book. The guy is has now been proven to be a crook and a liar, and it should have been apparent to the host at the tune(as it was to us listeners).

cowardly for the dems yet sadly politically smart since they waited for obama to explain what was going on so the repubs couldn’t frame it as releasing suspected terrorist in u.s. streets. but When did the repubs and our nations become such cowards to be so scared to throw someone in a super max prison? for the ones that are i suggest watching (locked up on msnbc Saturdays) no escaping from these prisons.

chennicans=fear, hate, status quo, lies, deceit, even when this is exposed they continues on and people still believes them.

why is the media giving 20percent of the population who lied, cheated, tricked, scared use into war and torture 80 percent of the media coverage, to the likes of chenney who has not been honesty in the least on what been going on the last 8 yrs.

yet were now suppose to believe him and everything he says u even paired him to the president, or is it good money to pit obama and Cheney against each other and try to keep a rift going and pc torture into enhanced interrogation?

also its seems like a good strategy for the repubs since there can throw Cheney out there and let him do the talking then just agree with him.

then repubs want to investigate nacy p for what she may have known yet do no such thing for bush officials(how crazy is that).

if u going to cover chenney so much call him on about the failure before 9/11 and the 4k plus troops killed for a illegal war, along with using fake intelligences with(waterboarding) info to tie saddam to al’queada to invade iraq.

i really hope onpoint does not become just a sensational programing and please call out guess when u can see them lieing.

as for iran Under the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty (NPT), a signatory state has the right to enrich uranium to be used as fuel for civil nuclear power. Such states have to remain under inspection from the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA). Iran is under such inspection. Iran can also back out of this if it is felt it against its(GET READY) NATIONAL SECURTIY.

So i do hope obama can keep up the dialog with iran instead of letting the neo-con try and force his hand to war.

Acting U.S. Attorney Lev L. Dassin’s parents will be proud of their son.

He was part of the action that framed 4 poor minority guys, and made them accesories to a terrorist conspircacy in exchange with undisclosed amount of money.

If these guys were so determined to kill Jews, and are sworn terrorists to destroy property, etc. why did it take more than a year to convince them. Or, were they being rational and thoughtful in tactics; or it took so long to convince them?

Good Job Mr. Dassin. Glad that your parents immigrated from Eastern Europe during World War II.

The more we are scared, the better it gets for the neo-con agenda.

My daughter just told me recently that a boy she graduated from high school with just came back from Iraq a quadriplegic. The community is trying to raise money so his family can retro fit their house for him.

I remember her graduation two years ago and seeing these kids with their Marine recruiter, all pumped up and looking shiny in their new uniforms. It’s tragic that as she starts her second year of college this boy has to deal with a life time of hurt. For what? It’s been 6 years and it does not seem to me like this thing is going to end.

Dick Cheney this is on you, this war was started by GW Bush and Cheney under a shroud of lies. Cheney has the nerve to say the things he is saying now. To me this man is the worse VP in our countries history.

Brianna, Obama has called for negotiating with the Taliban, if he would negotiate with the Taliban, then negotiating with Hamas and Hezbollah would be his obvious next step. In closing, if you think bringing the Guantanamo terrorists to this country is safe, then call Obama and tell him that you want the terrorists moved into your town.

Which part of the word “no” does Cheney not understand? I think the former VP should go back into
his “undisclosed” lair. He is being an obstructionist.

Lilya your a peace of work. Were you not told to stop making anti-Jewish statements by the producers?

“Good Job Mr. Dassin. Glad that your parents immigrated from Eastern Europe during World War II.”

This was uncalled for and it makes you look like a immature child.

I applaud President Obama for what he is trying to do with Gitmo – as long as that prison is in operation it will be a rallying cry for terrorists! Now is the time to have the very necessary discussion on what this country is – while not under the cloud of fear. Are we a nation of strong ideals and ideas or are we a nation that cowers when we are challenged. The Bush Adminstration’s response to the horrible attacks in 2001 allowed the terrorists to win because we abandoned our ideals – the very things that makes America great!

I am growing more and more angry when people say former Vice President Dick Cheney is right, or has a legitimate argument to make. Torture is a crime under U.S. law and treaties, Mr. Cheney violated that law, he has continually lied to us, the American people, including in his speach yesterday and is just trying to justify his criminality. I think it is time for the press and the media to stop giving him the time and space to express these views, and to always point out that he is defending acts that are crimes and behavior that was criminal. It is time to stop giving him the legitimacy that he is seeking.

Cheney says that the American people don’t want these “detainees moved to U.S. soil” because of security and their tax dollars going to keeping them in prisons.

Well first off, the Gitmo Bay detention center is on a U.S. military base, which is U.S. soil…John McCain was born on a military base in Panama…and thus a natural born citizen.

Second, since Gitmo is a U.S. military base, it’s therefore totally funded by our tax dollars. And as a sidenote the buildings holding the detainees were built by Cheney’s former company Haliburton…which was paid by our tax dollars.

Those are not good examples….sorry Dick.

I am surprised with even some of your panelists here today, nobody is intimidated by Dick Cheney. This argument is a distraction from the bigger issues we should be dealing with. I would expect congress to say no to closing gitmo. These things will take time to resolve and the administration should probably talk less and do their due dilligence in private and then share particular plans.

You can debate a fanatic.

The Republican party is at it again.
During the end days of the Bush administration, when it was obvious that they couldn’t find their way out of a paper bag, Obama was very right to wait to be sworn into office before delivering public statements. There can be NO SHADOW GOVERNMENT!
Now, when precident and common decency would dictate that the past administration is gone and should refrain from muddying the waters, Cheney just won’t go gently into the sunset.

Tom, this suggestion that the VP Cheney is making is a ‘all in’ for a Terrorist hit. It will most likely happen: the attack in 1993, the first year of President Clinton; 2000 attack on the USS Cole was in election year; 2001 attack, the first year of President Bush, 1996 Khobar Towers attack election year. This is SOP for terrorist and Republicans know this. My observation is that this is why they have been laying out this message for a year.

Has nobody remembered that the Bush administration (and that seems to have included Cheney) did nothing about the warning in August 2001 about “Osama to attach USA”? We still don’t know why they ignored that warning — or really why they invaded Iraq. How can anything Cheney says about the safety of the American people (including its army) be taken seriously?

To the Informed and Intelligent Guests of This Show

Please do not use “9/11 Style Investigation” without knowing what The Commission was chartered for. Their job was “NOT” to investigate.

You should have your own opinions, without copying what the talking heads frequently say all over the media, ie. McCain

I think we should waterboard dick cheney. this guy needs to go away already … wasn’t he the most unpopular vice president EVER? i don’t think he knows anything about successful interrogation techniques; he’s just trying to cover his butt.

Fighting or controlling terrorism is a police action.
The whole argument of the Bush administration is a lie.

Torture is against our laws. Cheney has openly admitted that he sanctioned it. He is a criminal in the eyes of the law, period. Time to bring this mans crimes to bare.

Obama is trying to have it both ways. He has done a complete 360 on everything he campaigned on.

I am very disappointed with Obama, this is not the man I voted for.

I think the media is ramping up this debate because left-right controversies are their bread & butter. This is what the Republicans have done historically every time they have been in the minority, i.e., force the media to present “both sides” of every issue. As a friend of mine from Europe says, “the trouble with American public radio is that it feels it must present “both sides” of every issue, but what if one of those sides isn’t true?”

I guarantee that if the media hadn’t ramped up Cheney’s speech, most of the American public wouldn’t have paid much attention to it. Obama did a very good job reminding us about “the basic values” (Jack’s phrase) of this country, but the media is letting this get drowned out by Cheney’s fear-mongering to a very select audience.

A plea to the media: Please please stop playing into Cheney’s hand.

Cheney’s lawyers may have told him that there is no statute of limitations on prosecution of human rights violations such as torture. There are also no borders since a number of countries have laws on their books that permit prosecution of those who have committed human rights violations (backed by international law). And not just in Europe. Canada also has such a law.
And I would once more like to say here that in the 20th century only some Americans have publicly voiced their support of torture. Other governments have tortured but none had the gall to say it was a great idea.

I hoped we’d hear a discussion on a specific assumption that undergirds Mr. Cheney’s skewed condescension on the torture issue: “Necessity.” Cheney and Rumsfeld imply that ONLY torture will get the essemntial information. Thus if any data emerges that shows that the USA obtained critical information through torture, the automatic assumption — that will be likewise assumed by gullible members of the public — is that means short of torture would NOT have revealed that information, and thus we are less safe without torturing. This is illogical, and ignores the collateral dangers that come from torturing.
The experience of the Israelis, moreover, is that you get truer information and thus better information, without torturing, through intensive psychological relational methods.
Messrs. Cheney & Rumsfeld, as armchair warriors and zealots, cannot or will not see the logical problem in their unstated presumption that ONLY torture will produce true, necessary, information.

Just disappointed and disillusioned.

I thought I was listening to intelligent people reasonably discussing a number of things until you hit the subject of guns in national parks. If you know so little about that topic I have to wonder if you’re also as ignorant on other subjects where I’m not in a position to catch it.

American Idol is not news, it’s mindless pop and marketing for coke-cola. Red, blue face off. Complete BS.

This gun fetish that our country has is a sickness, the new law letting people bring guns into the parks is a recipe for a disaster. I guarantee that the wildlife will suffer here.

I have a tongue-in-cheek suggestion. Maybe Congress should add a rider to the Credit Card bill that allows one to bring concealed weapons to your credit card company when you are discussing why they jacked your rate up to 30%? Or to your mortgage company when you are trying to convince them to renegotiate your underwater mortgage? Could the NRA get behind that?

I also think it’s important that we consider the deterrent effect that concealed weapons have on Black Bear attacks in National Parks.

I’m one of those people who pay off my credit bill on time every month. It’s outrageous for the CC companies to call me a ‘deadbeat’. They get a percentage from merchants on every single item I buy with my card. If that’s not enough for the CC companies then I’ll just cut my cards up.

On the ‘guns in parks’ issue, the panelists seem motivated more by their anti-NRA passions than the facts of the issue. No one even suggested that there was serious gun crime in these parks! It’s just: NRA+Guns=Bad. The Democrats aren’t controlled by the NRA, they simply have the common sense to know that there aren’t drive-bys in the woods.

The claims that torture is justified in any way seem completely outrageous to me. I also suspect that the use of torture in interrogations is not only unethical, but also does not produce good results. I would really like to hear some in depth reporting on this issue. So far, I’ve only heard general reporting of and discussion of debates/speeches from politicians. I have heard about the story of a famous German interrogator from WWII, Hanns Joachim Scharff which describes how much information could be gained from POWs without extreme interrogation or torture. I would like to hear some discussion to elaborate on this topic because I think it would be very informative to NPR listeners by providing a genuine means for learning about a topic rather than just discussing what politicians are saying.

Claiming that torture successfully protected the country because there have been no further attacks on US soil is to dishonor Americans abroad who were unnecessarily endangered or killed as a result of the Bush torture policy. Just because 3000 American were “only” killed on foreign soil does not make the Bush torture policy right.

Is the US Senate so hysterically afraid that it can’t imprison terrorists on the US mainland? Are these terrors so superhuman that they threaten the US even when in a supermax prison? Does the Senate’s timidity, hysteria and fear of bringing terrorists in the US mainland make the US look strong in the eyes of the world?

The US Senate helped create the problem. Now they need to help solve it.

After hearing a comment today is it any wonder many of us are constantly questioning bias in the media? There were several comments from supposedly informed journalists, including yourself Tom, about firearms in national parks that went over the edge.

A quick check shows me that there are no national parks named “Smokey Bear”, a reference that you just made. Methinks it was the first thing that came to the mind of an anti-gun journalist as it obviously tugs at the heart-strings but lacks any facts and was totally made up. Then you wonder aloud about the guy in the next tent, armed perhaps, shooting the caller due to too much rustling in the tent! Are you kidding me, is that a serious comment or question?

Then Jack mentions how critters and humans alike will have their lives in danger with the passage of this bill. Another knee-jerk reaction that wasn’t very well thought out by a supposed professional. I would challenge any and all of you to show me statistics where any of these concerns are borne out factually. It simply doesn’t exist. Where law abiding citizens are allowed to carry firearms there is no uptick in shootings. Is there no chance at all that these critters you so cherish (and so do we firearms owners by the way) will attack us? Geez, there are some predators out there with really big teeth after all. And is there no chance that bad guys can prey on campers in remote areas? I will grant you that the odds are slim but the one time it does happen the firearm carrying, law-abiding citizen will be glad for the passage of this bill that could quite possibly save their life.

This is simply fear-mongering by obviously biased people, journalists no less who are supposed to deal in facts. I’m quite disappointed but not surprised at what I just heard.

I do think I heard yesterday on the news that the latest American deaths in Iraq brought the total up to 4,300, rather than the 3000 Richard Wynne cites. That doesn’t mention the many tens of thousands of Iraqis, who never had any input into the U.S. foray. I’m curious whether Iraqis think “it” has been (or might someday be) worth it, they not having the spector of the war debt to contend with but having the huge, huge losses, the major dislocation of stability.
There is probably no way of knowing what “Iraqis think,” but I would like to hear at some point from some citizen Iraqis offering some perspective.

concealed guns and parks,
A big wooded area or forest posabably no one around for miles and someone with a loaded gun hiding in there coat makes me feel really safe.

wow whats next parents carrying concealed guns in schools, i mean u never know with the nra, i recalled they tried doing that for some airports as well that got shoot down.

is not terrorism goal is to make people afraid and fearful? bush admin has done everything osama could dream of and name of security.

also for joe,
Gen P. did the same thing in iraq about what u refer about the taliban in afgan , talking to and bring the moderate sunnis over, who fought against the u.s. along with al’quada along with recommending the same with the taliban since bombing everyone seemed not to work.

I ask this joe do u think Gen P. is a racial as well?
or u just really dont like obama which i assume u dont.

if your having trouble figuring out who the people were in iraq there called “sons of iraq” so u can google them and see. Also the same was done with a cease-fire with shia militas as well

concealed guns and parks,
A big wooded area or forest posabably no one around for miles and someone with a loaded gun hiding in there coat makes me feel really safe.- posted by Mike

Mike,

What makes you feel unsafe? Is it that a law-abiding citizen would do you harm in some way? Criminals are the ones that would harm you and they could care less about laws. Regardless of the new law criminals will carry firearms, and then be the only ones doing so had they been banned from parks. It’s unlikely that you’ll ever know if a law-abiding person is armed or not as we don’t flaunt the fact.

Oooops, we did it again.
We gave them the chance to set the agenda, again and again.

Where was Dick Cheney speaking yesterday.
…… Enterprise Institute. What is AEI?
Retirement office for Neo-Cons and Neo-Zions

Let’s have a look at What AEI stands for:
http://www.rightweb.irc-online.org/profile/American_Enterprise_Institute

than why do u need a loaded weapon in the park than? is not your agruement for it safty. why carry it if u dont have some type of intent to use it be it safty. agian why push carrying a concealed weapon in the airport which the nra backed?

please provided the stats on how people have been saved from someone carrying there weapon at a park.

should parents be able to carry them in schools, politcal events, concerts, public events? i mean not someone with a permited never used there weapon and broke the law or people may be able to tell but once they do it sets a bad precedent and danger.

people are law-abiding until they break the law would u agree?

Regarding the discussion of the credit card reform bill:

1. It shouldn’t seem incongruent to anyone who observes the progress of the legislature that gun rights in National Parks is addressed in a bill designed to reform credit cards. It is a cliche that laws are made much like sausages.

2. I wonder why Tom feels that the Constitution should be suspended in National Parks. Would there be any other rights that he feels are unnecessary besides those granted by the 2nd amendment? Perhaps we should waive the 1st amendment as well in the interest if a more serene experience.

The real crime with the torture, was the administration made it public policy. They were wimps, they didn’t want to take the responsibility by ordering it on their own and assume the consequence for it. They wanted an out by having it ruled ok under the constitution. If the information from these terrorist was so important for the safety of America, they could of put their administration on the line and order the torture. Our military every day put their lives on the line for America.

It’s nice to see that all the nut cases are now coming out of the wood works. Concealed weapons in parks, fear from terrorist that are misguided and are based on misinformation. A belief system that is based on the phony notion of what it is to be American. This coupled with the absurd belief that some of you seem to have that your lives are worth more than someone on the other side of the globe or South of the border.

How is it that some people think they are better than others, just because they are American. Look around, our roads are falling apart, people are losing their homes due to serious illnesses. Fro you gun toting NRA members, here’s a little fact for you; since 9/11 over 100 thousand people have been killed by guns in this country. How many death from terrorist? None.

if you think bringing the Guantanamo terrorists to this country is safe, then call Obama and tell him that you want the terrorists moved into your town

Joe B. do you know the difference between “moved to” and “imprisoned”?

On a wider scope, is there anything that the Republicans, in this case “private citzen and possible future war crime indictee Dick Cheney” says, that this show won’t run with? Other places documented his inability to give this speech without about every paragraph containing a lie.

What do they have to do before On Point either laughs at them or ignores them?

(PS As typical, I was in and out of radioshot during show.)

05/21/2009

HERE COME THE MEN IN BLACK

NEW YORK (CNN) — Four men accused by prosecutors of being “eager to bring death to Jews” were ordered held without bail Thursday, accused of trying to bomb two New York synagogues and planning to fire surface-to-air missiles at U.S. military planes.

And you can read on. It is scary that we have Muslims who want to commit terrorist act in this country, Muslims who hate Jews, Muslims who want to kill Americans.
But it is also scary that the FBI is setting up some hapless Americans, people who are poor and alienated with society. Be it the blacks in prison or the poor Haitians in Liberty City (Miami), it is not difficult to find Americans who are either criminals or down trodden with grievances against the government or the society at large, more specifically finding blacks of all stripe that hate Jews.
and much more at

Why would African Americans hate Jews more than other whites? I’m not exactly sure of your intent with this kind of statement, but your out of line on a lot of levels.

Speaking of people who want to do harm to others, how about South Central LA, or West and East Baltimore.

It’s interesting how a few Muslims can cause such a frenzy while in our inner cities there is a war going on in which African American men are killing each other.

Thresherk, I used “moved to” because you know (though you won’t admit it) that these terrorists will ultimately be released into the general public.

Mike,

I appreciate you at least trying to be rational. I don’t have the time to research your question about saving lives in parks. The fact of the matter is that if I have no weapon and a cougar is on my back trying to eat me than I have virtually no chance of living through it. Also, if I’m camping in a remote area of a national park and someone wants to rape my wife, what are my choices without a firearm of some sort? There would be poor choices all around but at least if I’m armed she may stand a chance of not being rapped.

The news wasn’t about carrying in an airport, nor did I comment on it, so I won’t address that issue as I don’t have a dog in that fight. As someone who’s camped in remote areas of the country in national parks I can assure you that I personally would feel much more at ease if I could carry a firearm, the only thing that might save me from a charging grizzly bear.

As to the snide comment from Mr. Independent…

Glad to see you devolve the conversation so quickly. I tried to have a logical discourse and you come back with “nut cases coming out of the woodwork”. Nice one, ya got me!

Just an FYI, my wife was a liberal democrat until the last few months when we got a new president. Thanks to you, and people like you, she has now done a complete change of position. By calling me an extremist of sorts you are pushing away your own kind. In the last two weeks she has purchased her first handgun and joined the NRA. This was all her own doing, I had no hand in it. The more extreme you all become the more others think they need to protect their liberties.

A hearty thanks for showing your true extreme nature by attempting to link the new law with terrorism. There is no connection nor has anyone made that assertion that I’m aware of! Keep up the good work and your well thought out positions.

I will continue to accrue firearms and ammunition for my safety, drive my big 3/4 ton diesel eating truck for work purposes and try and enjoy what liberties and freedoms I can muster in these tough times.

Carry on, I’m done here.

Dear Tom, On Point listeners, and listeners of just about every other NPR program that has really dwelled on this torture issue:

Ok, first let me say, that my liberal credentials are impecable. I am a tree-hugger, bleeding heart…however you’d like to say. For heaven’s sake, I voted for Nader in the 2000 election!

But I really really do not see what is the big deal with the torture issue; I think that, from an objective standpoint, this emphasis distracts from much more significant ongoings. In particular, we focus so much on the ~250 people who have been tortured. But isn’t this trivial alongside the fact that the Bush administration policies effectively killed more than 50,000 Iraqis (maybe 100,000…there doesn’t seem to be much interest in coming up with an exact number)? Why is this fact hardly ever discussed? Its a tragedy, a disaster of historic proportions, its like 9/11 x 25 or 9/11 x 50.

Don’t misunderstand me, I think that the torturing activities are dishonorable, and I myself am against them. But, if we really take a broad view, and if we are speaking of prosecuting Bush officials and so forth, shouldn’t we devote more media attention to those many thousands of Iraqis that, for reasons never really explained, had to die painful deaths? Water boarding sucks; but having 1000 pound bombs explode above your head sucks as well. It seems that we are worried about whether this leaf is higher than another leaf, without really thinking about which branch we are standing on.

because you know (though you won’t admit it) that these terrorists will ultimately be released into the general public

Terrorists, suspects or other? Please differentiate.

And when terrorists are let out of prison, are they given a sawbuck, a new suit, and shoved outside the front gate like in a ’30s Warner Bros. crime flick?

What gall!!

How can Republicans fuss endlessly about immigration and securing our “open” borders, and in the same breath claim that Cheney/Bush made America safe from terrorism?!!!!

The borders are as porous as ever, port inspections still inspect only a small fraction of transported goods, thousands of years of talent experience were ousted from government service because their ideology didn’t mesh perfectly with Cheney/Bush, etc, etc…

Does Cheney really expect anyone to believe that banning nail clippers from airplane luggage kept us safe from terrorism?

HERE’S THE REAL REASON WE HAVEN’T BEEN ATTACKED:

Terrorists didn’t need to risk another attack on U.S. soil… they can plainly see that Cheney’s fear-mongering continually does plenty to destroy America. It hurts our economic strength by making us excessively cautious; makes us spend interminably on militarism; harms our relations with trading partners; affects the price of oil; polarizes American politics; etc, etc…

All the world was with the U.S. after 9/11, but Cheney/Bush policies eroded our world support and markedly shifted world sympathy bit by bit towards the Islamic world, benefiting any real terrorists who happen to reside there.

Why would Al Qaeda risk shifting world sympathy back to the U.S. when an attack by 16 guys with box-cutters is still working such amazing magic and effectively continuing to bring America to its knees (thus taking a high toll on the entire Developed world?)

DON’T BELIEVE A SINGLE WORD FROM THE LIAR AND OPPORTUNIST DICK CHENEY!!!!!!

Oooops they did it again ………

Started with criminal Dick, supported by criminal neo-xxx/republicans; is delivered to us through @*$(%)#$ media and American Enterprise Institute, whose charter is to favor an illegal little country in the middle east, and they changed Obama’s Agenda.

Reading Jane Mayer’s “The Dark Side” you quickly conclude that Dick Cheney should be in an asylum, not a prison. He went bonkers when he started getting “raw” (uninterpreted) reports from the CIA he was not qualified to interpret, and he never got over it. Now he is trying too late to justify his irrational reaction. Commit him if you need to get him off the stage.

“American Enterprise Institute, whose charter is to favor an illegal little country in the middle east”

You mean Saudi Arabia? or Israel? I would say Israel has more legitimacy than the USA. Remember how this country was founded? Now, if you mean Saudi Arabia, that’s another story. I may actually agree with you.

Oh, now it all comes together. Here is a headline from NYT: “Cheney Seeks Book Deal on Bush Years and More.”

Please get better informed guests. Gebe Martinez really brought down the level of the discussion. It was almost unbearable. It was certainly embarrassing for a week in review show that I have listen to for years and respected.

Her insights were cheap, simple and ill-informed. I wondered who she was and then I saw on your web site that she worked for Politico. That explains the shallowness of her comments.

Cheers

JP

I agree with you 100% about Dick The Evil Cheney.
But when you are talking about 9/11, you are assuming a story that we were told by Dick and his friends at the time. Do not believe everything you heard.

>>> Why would Al Qaeda risk shifting world sympathy back to the U.S. when an attack by 16 guys with box-cutters is still working such amazing magic and effectively continuing to bring America to its knees <<<

Example: Box-cutters? What box-cutters? The alledged phone call from the sky from Barbara Olsen to Ted Olson on the day of the 9/11 claiming that the hijackers had box-cutters, has NEVER taken place – according to FBI [documented on FBI's very own website since 2006]. Even the Marsians believed the story. But it is just not true.

Ted Olsen was the “only” source of the phrase “box-cutters”; even after he altered his story three times.

It just did not happen. If you want links, etc. I can supply them to you.

Like I said, the fruitcakes are out in force today.

From reading this forum one would think we have lost our minds, maybe we have. The great American dream was just an illusion. Now that the curtain has been pulled back we see that we have been living one huge lie.

It does amaze me how people will argue until they are blue in the face about their right to bare arms, but when it comes to any attempt to build a decent society all they can talk about is buying ammo and guns and driving around in a junk food induced coma.

We have been had, Obama is a fake, a smart man, but he’s just another fake politician.

Cheney, well at least I know how I stand with that man. I’ll never vote for what he stands for, it’s the antithesis of what I believe in, but at least I know who I am dealing with.

Started with criminal Dick, supported by criminal neo-xxx/republicans; is delivered to us through @*$(%)#$ media and American Enterprise Institute, whose charter is to favor an illegal little country in the middle east, and they changed Obama’s Agenda.

Every statement by Lilya Lopekha is marked by an anti Israeli statement, everyone. I’m surprised you did leave one of your nasty little diatribes on the thread on Bill Russell.

Get a life.

The most salient point, completely erases the assertion that torture saved lives.

It was importantly misinformation produced by torture and other persuasive interrogation methods, idiotic in themselves, along with the climate of fear created by saying we were in such danger that we needed to abandon all our principles, that got us into the Iraq war. It was the tortured thinking of the fear mongers, led by the “men at the top” and their unethical and disrespectful world view, that directly caused ALL the death and destruction which that self-defeating exercise caused.

We have a security industry that is addiced to Taxpayer Money. They have to invent Source for Fear, so that they will not be the Unemployed Sector of the society.

We have to try the FBI agents and Prosecuters who showed money to poor unemployed black guys, so that they will be part of a plot.

If these guys in Bronx have criminal records and are unemployed and have empty pockets, how and why they would be interested in “buying” shoulder based misile systems in Connecitut. Even driving to upstate NY and bringing down a plane will cost money and why would they do such an expensive task, while they can harm the society locally in many ways without spending a penny and without dealing with third parties.

This is a manufactured plot for Orange Alert so that we can throw more money to the Security Industry.

Dennis Kucinich said: “Wake up America!”

You know Brianna you might be on to something. The more I read of this story the more something seems out of whack.
I think these men were pissed off at something, everything maybe. I think they were shooting their mouths off as people do, and somehow an informant found a way to make this into something. That’s how this reads to me.

The FBI planted an informant in this Muslim community and this guy fed his minders what they wanted to here.

If you read today’s NY Times story on this it does not sound right.

Obama is a puppet, is just another manager of the people within the queens Corporatocracy.

The real power;

Following is an excerpt from a conversation between one calling himself Hidden_Hand (HH or Soul Group Lucifer) and various members of The Above Top Secret Forum (ATS);

“1) I am curious as to how the bloodline family structure works. You said there are people who are part of your “extended family” that we may know of. So are these the Rockefeller, Rothschild, Bush, House of Windsor, etc. (typically known in conspiracy circles as the New World Order?).

How close is your interaction with your “extended family” and are they as spiritually enlightened as you seem to be? Can you just kind of give us an outline of how the family is structured, how much each level knows in relation to the top, etc.? Because there are a lot of theories and “know-it-alls” out there, and it would be nice to get it straight once and for all. Be as detailed as you feel is appropriate.

Hidden_Hand:

Starting at the bottom level, you have what we call “Local Cell Groups” or “Family Clusters”. There will be anything from say five to thirty or so of these, depending upon the size of the town or city in question. Each Local area has it’s own Council, comprised of Local Leaders representing the Six Disciplines of learning. There is also either a High Priest or High Priestess of The Order, who Serves their local community.

Above this, you have the Regional Council, with the Leader of each Local Council representing their specific areas. Then the National Council, in the same vein, with the Leaders of the Regional Councils sitting to represent their Regions.

Then you have the Supreme World Council above them all, with the National Leaders representing their Countries. Above this, is another group I cannot mention, who liaise with the “Hidden Hands”.

Then above this, there are many other levels of Leadership, purely from the Power Lines (the ones that are not of this planet). The Supreme World Council, only know as much as is “Handed” down to them from us.
In our Power Lines, we have a similar structure, with Local and Regional groups etc, though most of us are living in entirely ‘different’ types of communities than you would understand. All I shall say is that we are not “surface dwellers”.”

““The Earth lines are not aware of the entire picture. They themselves are not of our Lucifer Group Soul, and as far as they are aware, they are out to ‘rule the world’, to Control and Enslave, and create as much Suffering and Negativity as is humanly possible. That’s what they ‘get out of the deal’. World Domination. You’d have to say with that in mind, they’re doing a great job. But one of the things they don’t know or understand, is that our (Venusian Power Lines) agenda, is ultimately for the Highest Good of all concerned, in providing you with the Catalyst.

If they were aware of this Truth, there is a slight risk that they would not have done their jobs properly, and they would miss out on joining us in our 95% Negative Harvest. They are aware of the Harvest, and the need for them to attain the 95%, to get out of 3rd Density, and that is all the motivation they need to help us achieve our ultimate aims.”

Good Morning Putney Swope

You started smelling the deCaff.

Here is an entertaining reading for you 6 minority guys; cards stacked against them …. and nobody cared.
D.A. are not accountable. Heads they win, Tails they don’t lose.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Sears_Tower_plot

They set up a bonus system, so that everybody (except the victims) benefit from lying, cheating and decieving and wasting our tax dollars. Bush was happy, Cheney was happy, neo-jerks were thrilled.

—————
FBI payments
The first informant, CW1, received $10,500 for his services and $8,815 in expenses.
The second informant, CW2, received $17,000 and approval of his petition for political asylum in the United States.
Expenses for Charles James Stewart and his wife to travel from Chicago to Miami came to $3,500
Rent paid on the warehouse used for training from January to June.[5]

The trial information revised these figures
First informant, Abbas al Saidi, received $40,000.
Second informant, Elie Assad, received $80,000.[17]
————————-

At the end, the District Attorney after Judge Shopping and Jury Shopping, got the conviction. When you scare the heck out of the jury – attaching Sears Tower to 9/11 pictures of exploding fusealge and people jumping from towers, the jury gave in after two separate tries.

The bad news, is the Liberty Six/Sears Tower will be used and abused by the corrupt D.A. as basis for judgement to keep the Sociery in a Fearful State at the expense of a few unemployed poor idiots who would say anything to get some promised bribe pot.

Why is Liberty Six case is so entertaining? Bush and Ashcroft talked about them.
I am not kidding / I am not lying …. check it out yourself.

These poor and/or unemployed guys were promised $70,000 from an FBI Informant if they become part of a plot.

Press Release: Terrorists are getting ready to strike Sears Tower and they purched equipment for the action.
Reality: When FBI guy complained that they are not taking the plan seriously, these guys purchased a pair of boots in HOT Florida just to show the Informant that they mean business.

Press Release by Government: The Terrorists were training secretly in a training camp.
Reality: These guys were already a members of Gold’s Gym and they were lifting weights during “late hours” at nights.

I sware …. I am not lying.

Pleaes do not laugh too hard; bad for your health:

Question: Did any of the men have any actual contact with any members of al-Qaeda that you know of?
Attorney-General: The answer to that is “No”.
Question: Did they have any means to carry out this plot? I mean, did you find any explosives, weapons?
Attorney-General: You raise a good point… We took action when we had enough evidence.
Question: Was there anything against the Sears Tower other than this one apparent, just, kind of mention of the Sears Tower? It doesn’t look like they ever took pictures or…
Deputy Director of the FBI: One of the individuals was familiar with the Sears Tower, had worked in Chicago, and was familiar with the tower. But in terms of the plans, it was more aspirational than operational.

From
http://www.democracynow.org/2006/6/26/aspirational_rather_than_operational_7_arrested

AMY GOODMAN: What about the evidence or lack of evidence that was found?

MAX RAMEAU: Well, a lot of show has been made about the militaristic boots that they had and the gear and the outfits. Well, it turns out these guys didn’t have enough money or enough organization to get these things for themselves. The FBI bought them the boots that we’ve heard so much about, bought them the military outfits that we’ve heard so much about. If you look at the indictment, the biggest piece of evidence, it seems to me, that they have is that the group may have taken pictures of a bunch of targets in South Florida. But the guys couldn’t afford their own cameras, so the federal government bought them the cameras with which they took the pictures. They couldn’t get downtown and all the other places by themselves. The federal government rented them the cars that they needed to get downtown in order to take the pictures. So it looks like they really didn’t have too much capacity.

In addition, right now the running joke in Liberty City is, you know, in the indictments—if you read the indictments, the men provided the FBI informant with a list of things they needed in order to blow up these buildings, but in the list they didn’t include any explosives or any materials which could be used to make explosives. So now everyone in Liberty City is joking that the guys were going to kick down the FBI building with their new boots, because they didn’t have any devices which could have been used to explode, so this really, really looks pretty thin.

More Entertainment from Washington Post
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/01/AR2006090101764_pf.html

This is the secret terrorist plot that would match 9/11

Acting on instructions from the FBI, CW2 told the group that his al-Qaeda bosses were planning to attack FBI buildings in Washington, Chicago, Los Angeles, New York and Miami. He asked that Batiste and his group assist by providing video of the Miami FBI building, “which would be sent back to al Qaeda overseas,” according to court papers. He also gave Batiste a video camera.

In late March, driving a van provided by the informant, Batiste and two associates videotaped and photographed the FBI building, as CW2 had requested. They also taped the federal courthouse and detention center, and the Miami police headquarters.

CW2 later expressed interest in meeting Batiste’s Chicago associates and said al-Qaeda would pay to have them come to Miami. Batiste called Charles James Stewart, also known as Sultan Khan Bey, and his wife in Chicago, where Stewart leads his own branch of the Moorish Science Temple. With $3,500 in FBI money, Batiste paid for them to come to Miami.

Court papers show that Stewart is a convicted rapist with a long arrest record for other serious crimes. On April 11, with FBI cameras rolling, Stewart and Batiste sat in the Miami warehouse and discussed opening a shop to sell marijuana and drug pipes. They smoked marijuana as they talked, and Stewart revealed his plan to build a Moorish nation of 10,000 people.

Stewart wanted to make his wife, whom he called Queen Zakiyaah, an ambassador of the Moorish nation so she could not be detained by U.S. authorities. He said Moorish soldiers would wear green uniforms and become expert with bows and arrows. They would undergo night training that included jumping from a bridge into water 20 feet below.

But within days, Stewart and Batiste began to have differences over control of the organization and its mission. On April 17, the conflict broke into the open and Stewart tried Batiste under Moorish law on charges of treason and insubordination. He questioned “his relationship and association with the Arabian or Nigerian mafia,” a reference to the second FBI informant.

This guy Stewart is a mental case. Moorish nation? What a load of nutcases, all of them.

>>>This guy Stewart is a mental case. Moorish nation? What a load of nutcases, all of them.<<<

This is not the point. Such comical plays by some losers of the society and some criminal elements/motives within FBI ends up in writing our national security policy.

Two correction to prior postings:
- Liberty Six/Sears Tower crew’s Gold’s Gym membership was paid by FBI so that they can have military training by pumping iron.

- It is obvious that once they are arrested as terrorists becuase of the Plot Game that they are playing, obviously they become “gruntled”. Which means, both the judge and jury will convict them just because they may harm the society in general. That’s why for the District Attorney and FBI, it becomes: Heads, they Win… and there is no Tails.

Absolutely no risk in framing/entrapment of hispanic and immigrant people, just because FBI cannot ideal idiots with Arabic Background. So they exploit the converted ones by flashing dollars.

Joe B.,

I never thought I would take the time to respond to one of your posts, but yes, I would have no problem with the alleged terrorists being relocated to a detention facility in my state, my town, or my backyard.

As far as I know, convicted terrorists such as the unabomber and Eyad Ismoil, who drove a bomb-laden van into the World Trade Center in 1993, have been successfully incarcerated on U.S. soil for quite awhile.

Jack,

” Also, if I’m camping in a remote area of a national park and someone wants to rape my wife, what are my choices without a firearm of some sort?”

I can’t tell you how ill it makes me women’s sexuality is tossed about like a pawn in an intellectual argument. Suffice it to say the sexual violence epidemic in the United States is not going to go away because we allow guns in national parks.

As a woman, I can only say it makes me feel infinitely less safe.

Lastly, on Cheney:

Let us remember that in 2006 Donald Rumsfeld declared “information warfare” a vital part of fighting terrorism. Right now the former VP is masterfully directly his missiles into American minds, the media standing in as his faithful conduit in the war against whatever intelligence we have left.

& don’t forget: War is Peace. Freedom is Slavery. And Ignorance is Strength. Big Brother told me so.

This is very funny. When we were reading 1984, we all thought it was just another “fiction”, right?

Great catch Maureen!

To Maureen, responding to you is is no walk along the beach for me, but I must respond to you. The four terrorists who tried to build up a Synagogue in N.Y.C. this past week where recruited and converted to Islam inside a U.S. jail. If a Obama brings the Guantanamo terrorists to jails in this country, you can bet your bleeding liberal heart that they will work hard to recruit their fellow prisoners to convert to Islam and join Al-qaida, and in turn commit acts of terrorism against America when they are freed from incarceration.

Good god Joe!
What a brain-washed, frightened little creature you are!
Have you no sense at all?

Well, Joe B. I’m sorry if it was too painful to write to me, but I do thank you for the explanation.

I don’t believe a person can be “recruited” to Islam, but I do believe a convicted terrorist would be held in a high-security detention center from which they would never be “freed.”

And for the record, my heart does not bleed liberal or conservative. Just human.

Why is it the majority of gun owners are men? I’m a 100 pound female and currently living in Chicago. I’ve made it through life without a gun. I’m originally from Indiana and come from a family of gun owners who harbor the same fears most of these other gun owners have.
To top it off….I lived in California for a year and a half and went walking in the mountains unarmed all the time. I came across coyotes and a wild cat and none of them harmed me. Again – I’m a 100 pound female and I’m still here – safe and sound – without a gun for protection. The only thing I fear is all the jerks with guns!
I’m so sick of all the fear people have. Get counseling and stop putting the rest of us in danger.

Thank you, Rachel. I find this idea among gun owners that they are the “good guys” out to defend the people both incredibly arrogant and downright naive.

Among people who are trained to handle weapons in defense of citizens (i.e. police officers) there is enough abuse as is. I hardly trust the average Joe’s discretion above theirs.

If they think there is such a threat in the streets (and in the parks) they ought to look into community building and non-violence training, rather than fueling the arms industry.

Bush/Cheney invaded Iraq to protect America. obama is staying for?…he said we would be out…now it looks like we are staying..why? Why did obama lie?