Hi tom,

I was mad about the arrest of Prof Gates, even after it was found that he was the owner of the house they came to investigate but not surprised.

I seen this time and time again being in cali, missouri, and more so in mass. where cops have a personal issues and feel they can abuse there power to prove a point and superiority.

As a bi-racial person with extended family as police officers i had a cop friend of them personally tell me they racially profile minorities esp blacks cause there bound to catch someone.

I had a conversations with my friends soon to be husband whose a state cop asked me why minorities dont trust cops and have little faith in them. I responded that cops dont report others cops breaking the law, cops slant reporting, most cops for crimes.

I asked him if he did anything dirty as a cop and he said no he obeys the law yet than i asked him if some of his buddies have and he said yea i asked more than once he said yea but he doesn’t do it, I than asked him why he didnt report it and he simply stated that thoses are the guys that watch his back so u never rat or u get black listed.

My thinking is 7 out of 10 cops are dirty, 2 are clean but dont report it, and only one that is clean.(American gangsta rings a bell)

Just one example of many i could tell and i’m guessing many other people could as well

while in Beverly Ma. i was with my ex-girl (who is white)coming from her cousins house to grab a bit to eat around 830pm she was driving and didnt do a complete stop at the stop sign so a cop pulled her over, he came to the window and was very nice to her and telling her that she had to be careful cause deers sometimes run by, than saw me in the passager seat and his mood changed and asked what i was doing here, as i told him i was with her coming from her cousin to grab i bit to eat he then told her to wait and called for back up, a few minutes later another officer came to my side of the car and started questioning me why i was there? why i was with her? and asked for my drivers id(again not driving the car) than asked for my Social Security id cause he wanted to make sure it was my license i gave him, than made use wait 15minutes and than return to my side and said (always remembered this) “looks like you dont have a record” and gave me a dirty look and went back to his car, than the first cop comes back and tells her that he giving her a warning and looked at me and said “i better watch myself”. by that time i was ready to cause a scene but kept my cool, i called the station and file a complaint yet the next day when i followed up nothing was done.

So i can see how gates could be mad. Most cops are programed to racial profile minorities, its just something that does not make it to main stream media, but local news, reports can almost guaranteed to always spun to the cops favor,

What ever happen to the cops that held the handcuffed black man down in Oakland Ca. while another cop pulled out his gun and shot the guy, Record on multiple cell phones, yet it was not striped of his badge, but was defended for his actions and went to Florida only after having threats sent to him did he go back to the cops and D.A. who he refused to talk to or work with.

Yet so many refused to believe cops would break the law, racially profile, harass minorities.

I tell my friends in cali, that mass in one of the most liberal states besides taxes and minorities

sorry tom for the rant but i feel people dont realize harassment of minorities still goes on no matter how nice u act towards these supposed good cops.

Some info for the Gates discussion.

A disorderly person is defined as one who:

“With purpose to cause public inconvenience, annoyance or alarm, or recklessly creates a risk thereof
engages in fighting or threatening, violent or tumultuous behavior, or
creates a hazard or physically offensive condition by any act which serves no legitimate purpose.

Conviction for Disorderly conduct in MA can be punishable by imprisonment for up to 6 months.

Disturbing the peace also falls under Chapter 272, with similar penalties. Some Massachusetts towns also have specific ordinances relating to disturbing the peace.

MGL CHAPTER 272. Mass General Laws, excerpt.

Section 53. Common night walkers, common street walkers, both male and female, common railers and brawlers, persons who with offensive and disorderly acts or language accost or annoy persons of the opposite sex, lewd, wanton and lascivious persons in speech or behavior, idle and disorderly persons, disturbers of the peace, keepers of noisy and disorderly houses, and persons guilty of indecent exposure may be punished by imprisonment in a jail or house of correction for not more than six months, or by a fine of not more than two hundred dollars, or by both such fine and imprisonment.”

The Cambridge Incident Report (6 pages, PDF):

http://graphics8.nytimes.com/packages/pdf/national/20090722_gates_police_documents.pdf

My bottom line: the arrest was uncalled for. Gates was arrested for having an opinion the office did not like.

The officer was leaving the scene. He could have left alone or left with an arrest in his car.How was the public endangered if the officer just left the property owner on his own property, even if the property owner dared to have an opinion? There was real crime for the officer go and attend to. Instead, hours of paperwork and heaps of tax payer money is wasted processing this arrest, meanwhile the real criminals in Cambridge have less cops watching them. Would we (the public) really feel better if charges had stood and Gates now had a criminal record? Having a criminal record is a serious thing for ordinary folks, effecting their future ability to obtain employment, loans, etc and a criminal record shouldn’t be created in such a frivolous manner.

Arresting a person. Seizing a person and hauling them off against their will, should be an action of last resort. I don’t sense that this officer felt the same way about his power. No emergency. No threats of physical violence. No danger to the public. No obscene language. One person expressed a verbal opinion. The other person got physical – “in the line of duty,” of course. I always side with the verbal people. Even if (hypothetically speaking) Gates was over-sensitive and the cop was as professional and sweet as could be, I still do not agree with, nor see the necessity of, the arrest (and tricking him to come out to his porch – “a public space” – to boot). The man was voicing an opinion in his own home. Not threatening anyone physically and not using profanity. This is America. Land of the free. Freedom of speech. The First Amendment.

“While I was led to believe that Gates was lawfully in the residence,” Sergeant Crowley wrote in the report, “I was quite surprised and confused with the behavior he exhibited toward me.” (NYT) So what? Who cares about your “feelings”? Just do your job and get off this citizen’s private property. After establishing that he was speaking to the home owner, the cop asked Gates to step outside of his home in order to arrest him. He couldn’t arrest him in his home. He had to trick him to moving onto his porch, which is somehow considered “in public,” to slap cuffs on the dangerous criminal. An officer is expected to work toward the prevention of an arrest and not be a “gotcha ya!,” hyper-to-arrest, Gestapo.

For those who will criticise Gates and say he should have been calmer … I put the onus for remaining calm on the officer. The cop was in their environment. Just another day at work. They deal with highly tense situations everyday. The professor was in an unusual situation. Tired after along flight, adjusting to different time zone/sleep pattern disturbed (alcohol on plane?), door jammed, officers in home. Cops are spoken to, and speak in, loud voices all day. As long as Gates was expressing an opinion and not obscenities, what is the point of the arrest? I think that in any debate it is very important to make clear distinctions. There is:
Loudness – not a crime. Everyone in a police situation speaks in louder, emphatic, stressed tones.
Opinion – people are entitled to and have a right to express their opinion, without getting arrested!
Obscenity – not communicating an opinion about a situation, but making an ad hominem attack.

Gates has a right to his (right or wrong) opinion, especially IN HIS OWN HOME! If I was the officer I would say … “Calm down. I was not racially profiling, I answered a call and did my job correctly. Here is my name and badge #, if you have a complaint I encourage you to file one. Good day, sir.” And left the homeowner on his land.

My concern is with the rules that govern the police’s power over any citizen. And I think that with today’s technology, all police officers should have a video camera built-in to his/her badge on their chest. We should be watching Police-Gates footage right now.

Geez, Wouldn’t it be nice to get to arrest anyone who criticizes us? Co-workers, relatives, ex-lovers, etc. Just throw them in jail! Yet, we shouldn’t empower the police to do just that!

First Admendment
Fourth Admendment

[Just to condense.]

The Gates Debate:

Is not about whether Gates was right or wrong in his opinion/accusation (he is entitled to be right or wrong).

Is not about whether Gates spoke loudly (in his own home!). Cops speak loudly all day long, so go cry me a river.

It is about the seizure, kidnapping, arrest of an individual, in their home, on their property, while in the act of expressing their opinion. Specifically, this debate should be about the laws governing the power we grant to officers.

In the comments so far posted here, no one has mentioned Obama’s comment, and I am glad for that. He was asked his opinion and he gave it–acknowledging his own potential biases. Acknowledging his potential bias is more than Gates and the officer have done. As Obama’s mother (an anthropologist) probably taught him, no one can be completely free of bias. We just have to be aware of them and fight against them.

On of the things that the officer must to be aware of (esp. as a diversity trainer) is that it is the actions of the past that created the need of the diversity training. It seems that the officer was attempting to get the speck out of Professor Gates eye while ignoring the log in his own.

About 15 years ago I found myself in a situation very similar to Henry Lewis Gates. I accidentally locked myself out of my own home. I could look in the kitchen window and see my keys laying right there on the table. I had two choices: stand out in the cold and wait hours until someone came home to let me in, or to break into my own home. As I was about to break into my own home it occurred to me that my climbing in a window could really look very suspicious to a motorist passing by the front of my home on that busy street. Their suspicion might be aroused to the point where they might call the police. The police acting on such a telephone call would arrive and all sorts of unfortunate things, some by mistake, could devolve from the situation. I decided to head that all off at the pass. I walked the half mile from my house to the police station, walked in, identified myself and explained to the police officer in charge what I was about to do, IN ADVANCE, so that the incident would not arouse any suspicion.

You’d think that a Harvard professor would have had the intelligence to recognize the suspicion that breaking into his own home might arouse, and would have had the intelligence to defuse the situation in advance.

Here’s one more item that Obama can list as one of his credentials, “race-baiter”. I’ve never seen any president act as “stupidly” as Obama has.

I’m haunted by a remark Jack Beatty (the voice of moral clarity) made a couple of weeks ago about the unconscionable amount of money spent daily by lobbyists for health insurance companies. How can the discussion of health care reform be conducted rationally (which I believe would lead to the conclusion that one necessary element of cost containment is single payer) when such money interests trump argument. When politicians and “pundits” say single payer is not politically feasible, what they really mean is that suppliers of campaign finance won’t stand for it.

Just heard an phone interview with Officer Crowley here: http://audio.weei.com/m/25432556/sgt-james-crowley-cambridge-police.htm

Crowley seems like a good guy.

One question that came to mind, did the officer move things outside inorder to leave Gate’s residence or inorder to arrest Gates on the porch? Their accounts seem to differ on this point.

No matter, I just do not think that expressing your opinion (a right or wrong opinion) in a loud voice should subject one to arrest. Hell, the police can use a loud, short, bossy voice to “ask” an innocent citizen to move their car whenever they want. I think the bar should be set higher. A physical threat, danger to the public, attempting to obstruct an officer’s movements, using profanity, but not just an opinion and emotion. Let the citizen express himself from his porch. Let the public hear. The officer still could have just left without making an arrest. Hell, I’ve been in Harvard Square and heard a dude screaming his political message from his soap box. An opinion with emotion. Like it or don’t like it, nevertheless you don’t arrest him.

Professor Henry Louis Gates and the officer. Gates’s intelligence and feistiness predisposes him to the sort of encounter in question. Part of Gates’s modus operandi is questioning and challenging patterns that blacks have been confined to. Right? I would be surprised if he never before got into a scrap where he knew he was right, and the opposition misjudged what they were up against.
The officer was a trainer in racial profiling, and I am wondering if he was avoiding setting a precedent with this one particular high-profile scrappy showdown. Are we for scrappy showdowns with the authorities a-la Skip Gates?

I don’t feel like this incident gives Gates the best platform and I don’t think he’s the best spokesperson to talk about racial profiling in America.

My discomfort with Gates comes from years of watching him on PBS and feeling like he was talking to his audience in a patronizing way.

It doesn’t excuse police misconduct but I can easily see how taking that attitude (I have an endowed chair at Harvard, you’re a dumb white cop) when things need to be calmed down might escalate the situation.

I also know what it’s like to get off a plane from China (disorienting, pun intended) and no doubt Gates’ rational thinking process was a bit impaired.

I think negative reaction to Gates using class to demean the officer may be more powerful in forming negative opinions about him than stereotypes about race.

I’m an Obama supporter but I thought it was out of character to “color” his comment on the Gates situation by calling the Cambridge Police Department “stupid.” Gibbs back pedaling on that seems to mean they know it was a mistake.

Oh, dear. To judge by the volume of comments on the Gates incident, it appears that your audience is joining the herd of media lemmings chasing a juicy anecdote rather than dealing with difficult policy issues. Fight back! Don’t spend an inordinate amount of time on an incident that will be best analyzed later once the heat has died down.

expanded,

listen to your clip, these cops seem to see nothing wrong with what he did, and his statements says his fellow cops see nothing wrong. So it looks like this behavior is common on the force, and being black in America and expressing your opinion is still a criminal offense and you can get arrested. Imagine all the other case of racially profiling and un called for arrest that occur that does not get reported.

“was there anything u do differently?” Crowley no hench the mentality of officers towards minorities and hench the response distrust minorities will continue to have against officers.

Dave chapplle had a good stand up about this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkQKOBiHyNU

In regards to the Louis Gates story:

Please make it stop!!

This issue, as it relates to President Obama’s response, is more mundane, distracting and dare I say, stupid, than President Clinton’s impeachment.

Can we please stay focused on real issues?

If the media would like to explore the issue of racism then lets talk about some of the real inequalities in American society and not focus on Obama, who in fact made a quite reasonable statement under the circumstances.

“In regards to the Louis Gates story:

Please make it stop!!”

Yes! I haven’t heard anything about Michael Jackson, yet, and the show hasn’t even started!

No one is talking about the classist aspect that may be present here. Gates, as a Harvard professor and as someone living in Cambridge, Mass. may harbor a sense of entitlement. That, coupled with other elements such as travel fatigue (he just arrived back from a trip to China) and other more complicated emotions may have led him to jump to the conclusion that he was being racially profiled. Of course, until the 911 and dispatch calls are released to the public no one will know what occurred, and even then we still may not know.

The assumption by prominent African-Americans -including President Obama- that this is a racially motivated act should not be taken lightly. However, as more facts come to light I believe that Gates’ state of mind and unusual belligerence will justify the police officer’s arrest.

while the initial call made to 911 about a “break in” at prof. gates home was race-based, it may be that the real issue at hand here is that the police just do not tolerate anyone who wont immediately back down and apologize and put their tail between their legs. i think the real national debate that might need to come in to play here is about the increasing arrogance of police who feel they should be bowed to at all times and their behavior and responses to situations are always right because they are the police. the more i hear officer crowley talk, the more it seems clear he just didn’t like the way prof. gates was yelling at him and not backing down, and at that point i think it was more about police expectations of how people are supposed to act with them, than about race.

I think that insurances agencies should be thankful that we are not telling that they have to become non-profit, as they are in Switzerland. So should hospitals. Hospitals should also be glad that the government isn’t setting their prices like Japan. If those things were to happen, I think we would see our costs go down dramatically. I agree with the independent committee to look at fees and other cost saving measure. But Congress will have to give up some of it’s powers for that to happen.

I don’t understand what the big controversy is. I know that people are scared of socialism. I believe in free market and Capitalism, but in this case the free market isn’t working and drastic steps need to be taken. I know that a major part of our economy is involved, but if people can’t afford it; are going bankrupt to see a doctor then the economy will be hurting even more and for much longer.

“However, as more facts come to light I believe that Gates’ state of mind and unusual belligerence will justify the police officer’s arrest.”

Unless what comes to light is Gates making physical threats, obstructing the officer’s movements, using profanity, then nothing will justify the arrest. And it would have already come to light and been in the police report (which is public) if it had happened.

Unfortunately, in our society racial profiling does exists. However, many people of color also jump to the conclusion that they are being racially profiled anytime the police want to do their jobs. It is an unfortunate circumstance. Whether racially motivated or not, Obama is right the Cambridge police did “act stupidly”. The bottom line is, once Mr. Gates provided proof that he was, in fact, in his own home, the police should have said, “Thank you. Sorry for the confusion. Enjoy the rest of your day” and left the residence.

Just an aside – Was it wise of Officer Crowley to choose the venue of WEEI Radio in Boston of the Dennis and Callahan show to make public comments, and I believe his first public comments, where both hosts of this sports talk show were suspended from the airwaves for a period of time of making obsence and racist comments about Boston Metco students a few years back?

A witches brew of race and class in America.

Jay’s got it. Gates abused his class (power) and is hiding behind racial profiling.

Tom–

i am a native working-class cantabridgian by birth and an upper-middle class cantabridgian now. it provides a unique perspective.

is there racism in america, particularly with the police? yes, of course.

can we apply that to this case absolutely? of course not.

but we have a fabulous opportunity here to talk about cambridgge’s secret shame and that is classism. trust me, growing up in the soul-sucking shadow of harvard is discriminatory at the least. just like white folks don’t recognize their “white privilege” the harvard folks don’t recognize their “class privilege”.

again — can not apply this to the individual case — but in general…? very true.

This isn’t about racism – but it is about race.
The responses of Mr. Gates, Governor Patrick, and President Obama draw upon precedent, either their own, or cultural perspective regarding interactions with the police.

Mr. Gates assumed racism – incorrectly.

“Was it wise of Officer Crowley to choose the venue of WEEI Radio in Boston of the Dennis and Callahan show to make public comments, and I believe his first public comments, where both hosts of this sports talk show were suspended from the airwaves for a period of time of making obsence and racist comments about Boston Metco students a few years back?”

Yes, it was unwise. In fact, it was “stupid!” Dooh! The S-word!

I do not see the Gates incident as racism. I see it as a case of a policeman who tried to assert his superiority over an “uppity” non-policeman. Some police believe that non-policemen should show bow down to them because they are policemen and that anything other than complete grovelling deference should be punished.

I find it interesting how people are drawing sides without enough information to form any real opinion. We where not there. I think that mistakes were made by both parties.

Mr. Gates should have voiced his displeasure without raising his voice. Sgt. Crowley was showing that he was in charge and it seems this was more about class and power.

Now lets get back to health care.

I feel we throw the term racist around too easily. I’ve the same incident happen to friends of mine and me because we are college students. My friend was hit in his own house by a female officer and everybody involved was white.

The police have proven, in all the examples Jack just listed, that they arrest more minorities that they encounter than whites, in the same situation (traffic stops, etc).

He didn’t know the facts and yet he felt free to make racist comments. Nicely presidential.

I’m with Jay. This is more about class than race, and Obama played right into it.

The officer obviously doesn’t watch PBS.

“Unless what comes to light is Gates making physical threats, obstructing the officer’s movements, using profanity, then nothing will justify the arrest.”

Well, that’s the issue at hand. Can you yell at a cop and not get arrested? I’m no law expert, but that’s up to the arresting officer to decide. As in this case, the charges may be dropped but one takes the risk of getting arrested once one decides to confront a cop. Its common sense, which was not at play here.

With the exception of using an uncharacteristically unfelicitous word (“stupid”), President Obama’s statement re: Professor Gates was on target. If we moved right along from George Bush’s “Mission Accomplished” verbal faux pas, we can survive this one. As the white mother of a black child and multi-racial grandkids, I can tell you how often during adolescence we had to tell our son if he was stopped, and in particular if he was alone when he was stopped, his only choice was to say “yes sir, no sir, here’s my id, here’s my parent’s phone number”. I’m a civil rights lawyer and I had to tell my own son that in those situations (and they occurred) he couldn’t be indignant, couldn’t ask for a badge number, because he could be jeopardizing his safety. The natural anger of a young male at unfair and officious and contemptible police behavior had to be contained, for his own safety. The emotional cost of teaching and learning that lesson was not small. And he was stopped and he was stopped for no reason and he was stopped more often than his white friends.

With regard to health care, the only mistake President Obama has made was to set a date personally, so it looks like he is failing to achieve a goal, when it is Congress who is failing. Its time for Rahm Emanual to play hardball: if the Max Baucus’s of the party think they are above the fray and guaranteed pharma and insurance backing and reelection, it is time for the President and the party to disabuse them of that notion. If Democrats don’t support this President, who brought them to the majority in Congress, they need to be moved out of the way. The Republicans can continue to unravel by being the party of “no ideas” and “no”. Just as soon as one of those mealy-mouthed hypocrites presents a viable health plan, I’ll believe that hell has frozen over.

Dear Tom, I love your program and listen often but I don’t see how you can be competely unbiased when one of your major sponsors today is Liberty Mutual. It is an outrage that Max Bacchus is chair of a committee which considering health care legislation! It seems that we are all entangled in insurance company web!

re: Prof. Gates:

The real racial profiler is the person who called the police in the first place.

Lay off the police.

Hi Tom,
What are we as a society going to do about our racism?
Keep the single situation in view…
Would not education for officials, esp police, EMT’s & Firefighters be in order?
WE HAVE come closer to less racism as whites in the USA, & the Boston Police did not KICK THE PROFESSOR TO THE GROUND like the LA police did w Rodney King, but it is clear that racism was a noted factor in the Professors’ case…AND this police officer may just take a second look at his racism-maybe not.

Why did the Professors’ neighbor not recognize him!

Thanks.

“Well, that’s the issue at hand. Can you yell at a cop and not get arrested? I’m no law expert, but that’s up to the arresting officer to decide.”

There is not enough jail cells to house the number of people everyday who raise their voice in stressful, police situations. You can not have it be at the officer’s whim or bruised hyper-macho ego. It isn’t just “yelling,” it is emotionally expressing your opinion in America.

Please Jack, you are so in Obama’s pocket it’s pathetic. He should never have entered this situation. What’s Obama think about the rape allegation against Ben R.? I want to know.

Obama’s not here to help everyone. He’s here to take from those who work and give to those who don’t. He’s here for unions but not for small business people. He’s here for the public sector but not for the private. Jack, you are a joke.

I don’t think it’s appropriate for people like myself, I’m not a person of color, to speak to the experiences of people of color. None of us were there so we don’t know what really happened. How can those of us who are white really know what we are talking about when speaking to any experience of a person of color? We have our own experiences that no other person can fully understand so we can’t realistically speak to experiences of others.

I am a racist. I am a 58 year old male Caucasian. I loathe white males; this group is the power base in this country, it seems to me. It runs this society, from government (including policing) and Wall Street to Main Street.

My throw-away job is a lower-tier Blue Collar job. Last January I startled several of my colleagues who were disparaging the Martin Luther King Jr. holiday by saying he is one of my heroes, a great man whose service to the nation should be honored by all Americans.

I see subtle evidence of racial biases toward people of color every day on the job. I have not one iota of doubt that many white policemen in this nation are infested with a prejudice that can affect the way they do the job.

President Obama, while unwise to speak strongly without possessing all the facts, must speak out when events of the day move him. Too often presidents are restricted in what they say, spewing only vanilla comments, if you will.

The president, in my view, is a good man with the potential to become a great president. I will happily tolerate his occasional misjudgments when he speaks up, if he will just continue to speak up.

Brian Chapman
Evansdale, Iowa

If officers can’t turn the dash cam & mike toward where they think they will be engaging with people; officers might want to consider carrying a small digital voice recorder in their shirt pocket.

Cops get killed everyday in the US. They’re right to assume a threat until proven otherwise. Yelling at them, challenging them, and disobeying them is irresponsible.

A cop’s job is to maintain control and keep the peace, NOT to lose control and cause chaos! Put simply, we need more Andy Griffiths and fewer Barney Fifes wearing badges!

Prof. Gates arrest is an example of a civil rights violation not necessarily “racial profiling”. It is apalling to think that a police officer felt he had to “win” by arresting Prof. Gates for “disorderly conduct”. Why didn’t he just walk away? Why did he feel he had to prove his power by arresting Prof. Gates? Poor judgement and arrogance on his part. It is a terrible fallacy that we have to kow tow to policemen exercising an abuse of power — go along to get along in order to avoid “antagonizing” the police into an arrest. Please, there’s a world of difference between difficult life-threatening situations and a middle-aged angry man and if the police can’t make that assesment cooly and with restraint, God help us all.

As an aside, according to newspaper reports, neither the neighbor who called the police nor the neighbor who took the picture of the arrest recognized Prof. Gates. It is a sad statement that in that neighborhood people don’t know their neighbors.

I have been imagining Anna Deavere Smith making a one woman show about this incident, as she has of other complex and newsmaking situations. Her talent would make an excellent exposition of what is not able to be easily understood at the moment. I hope she’s imagining doing it, too.

Dear Tom,

I am sympathetic to the issue of racial profiling which has been underlined in the arrest of Prof. Gates. I have the feeling both parties probably overstepped boundaries but we have no way to know right now.

I would ask you, is there a larger issue in our society of the preponderance of more expression of anger? I would point to the reality shows which feature conflict and anger and which glorify such behavior.

Thanks for another great show

Bonnie

Prof. Gates is an uppity black man and the cop is a blue collar white guy.
Gates’ neighbors called the cops on him. Why did they not know who he was and why are people mad that a cop did his job? Gates’ was being insulant and pulling that ridiculous race card. I side with the cops on this one.

I’m so glad a majority in this forum are seeing the Cambridge police fiasco for exactly what it is: an abuse of power on the part of the police.

The war on drugs, and now the war on terror, continue to militarize and corrupt law enforcement.

Gates himself looks not like a racist, but a classist.

some people deny, deny, deny that anything racial happens against minorities even when stats and facts show that minorities are fall more likely to arrested than whites for the same incidents, fall more likely to be harassed, intimidated, and loss there rights as American citizens.

it may not matter for some and will almost never affect them, but to many of the minority and minority communities have to deal with cops terrorizing them and its only reported when the main stream media is forced to talk about it, this is a disgrace in our country that allows for police to keep the same mentality of racial profiling and minorities not trusting or respecting them while others not having to deal with this dont understand why someone may be angered by a officer questionable actions.

As to point out many of those arrest like gates and one of the caller talk about gets dropped.

“You can not have it be at the officer’s whim or bruised hyper-macho ego. It isn’t just “yelling,” it is emotionally expressing your opinion in America.”

Freedom of speech is not the issue here and it seems there are bruised hyper-macho egos on both sides in this case.

EMOTIONAL expressions at law enforcement officials risk arrest. Its a common sense thing, just like if you run from a cop you will get the crap beaten out of you.

All in the abstract because no one knows what occurred besides Gates and the arresting officer. My original point is that Gates’ state of mind – a subconscious anger at having to deal with a working class individual like a commoner- may have led him to make a few bad decisions that led to his arrest.

It is not wise to be argumentative with police in the police culture in which we are now and I am afraid that goes for all colors.
The police culture is a problem, however. The police as encountered by me are unfriendly, overbearing in the situations where it is not required, i.e. no crime is going on, nice towns, genteel environment. One can only imagine what happens when it a bit more tense.
Instead of being a citizen’s servant who is friendly and conscious of that role unless provoked to be behave differently by the citizen. I havent’ seen anything like that in European countries. Here, I approach a police office with slight apprehension even for routine questions.
Their arrogant and tense manner (generalization, of course) may provoke some citizens into argument etc., and it seems that’s what happened here and the policemen then harvested more or less what he sowed.
I am sure that had the officer been friendlier and more relaxed, appropriately for the situation, nothing would have happened.
That culture is reflected in the tax services the police are doing on the roads, where they spend considerable amount of time instead of fighting crime (also unheard of in other developed countries). They treat their collection activity with the same solemnity and tension as if every other car carries guns, drugs and slaves, which is totally ridiculous, especially in the safe, wealthy towns where they have nothing else to do. Raise the taxes already and send these folks to school so that they can get a real job where they will will important because of what they do and not because of the uniform they wear!

Hi Tom,
President Obama has only been in office for 6 MONTHS! PLEASE give him a chance. We as American citizens have to do the hard work of: holding our elected officials to getting the job done in DC ie: Universal Healthcare, ending 2 wars, regulating big finance & holding those responsible for all the torture & inhumane treatment of prisoners accountable for their actions. If our elected officials cannot get the job done, then vote them out of office.
We as American citizens need to be adults and look on line at our elected officials voting records in DC & view for ourselves how our congress persons & senators are representing us. If WE do not do the tedious work of informing ourselves, then, I don’t know that we are really serious about change.
Thanks, again.

As a neighbor of Prof. Gates who has seen the press camped out on our street from Monday to Wednesday, even though he was clearly away on the Vineyard, I too am wondering about precisely what happened in his hallway, since both parties to this mess seem quite credible.

My question is, aren’t these incidents actually recorded over the portable “ECC” communications system that Sgt. Crowley was wearing with which he was connected to police HQ? Last night on a WGBH-TV panel show, one of the guests suggested that there might indeed be an actual audio recording of this entire incident. If indeed that is the case, might this be an incident in which that bit of technology, similar to the secret recording system in the Oval Office that helped unravel the Watergate debacle, help unravel the truth?

Well now we have the “Gates-gate” scandal, and if there is an actual audio recording in police custody, that needs to be established and released to the press to add some substance to all the speculation and to end the “he said/he said” controversy on which this entire case now rests.

“You can not have it be at the officer’s whim or bruised hyper-macho ego. It isn’t just “yelling,” it is emotionally expressing your opinion in America.”
————————–
“Freedom of speech is not the issue here and it seems there are bruised hyper-macho egos on both sides in this case.”

Freedom of speech is the issue here.
A man was arrested for exercising it.

“All in the abstract because no one knows what occurred”

Not all in the abstract. We know that Gates did not make physical threats, did not obstruct the officer’s movements, did not use profanity – all this would have been in the police report if it had occurred.

“My original point is that Gates’ state of mind – a subconscious anger …”

Guessing at people’s subconscious or unconscious works both ways.

This is an interesting topic and most reasonable people can agree that an occurance like this should not lead to an arrest. I feel that, in this instance, the events that lead to the arrest were driven by the suspect, not the police officer. (I am intentionally leaving out names, to make a point.)

The officer was dispatched to a potential break-in, a felony. He arrived at the scene and an individual was already in the house in question. At this point he does not know that this individual is the owner, but he fits the description of the suspect; so when the suspects walks back into the house, saying that he is doing it to get his ID, the police officer MUST FOLLOW.

He could be going back to warn an accomplice, pick up a weapon, get a hostage, flee the scene….

This appears to have enraged the suspect who then begins to berate the officer. The officer at this point asks the resident (no longer a suspect) to continue this conversation on the front porch. This was probably done so that the officer would have witnesses. If it was the officer’s intention to arrest him all along, why not do it inside the house where it would have been the word of the officer against the word of the suspect, no witnesses.

According to the officer and other witnesses, The officer asked the man to calm down twice on the porch, the second time, with a pair of handcuffs out.

Talk about a perfect storm… angry African American Studies professor, sick and exhausted from a long flight back from china, can not get in his house and is then confronted by a white police officer asking to see identification.

No winners here but the officer does not deserve the abuse he got, continues to get and although he teaches a class on racial profiling he will be remembered by many as a racist.

Very heartfelt comment, Mr Chapman in Iowa. I am a 57 yo white female, staff nurse, & encounter lots of subtle & not so subtle racism & racist remarks daily, at work, in town, at the grocery store & imbedded in friends & family members. AND I too loathe it all. My workplace does not recognize Martin Luther King day as a holiday- I find it alarming that our Managers (older white males & females) can make this comment & not know that it is not somehow loathsome to me, as Martin Luther King is one of my Heroes, as well.
(how do you know your job is ‘throw away’..)
I too am proud of our President & hope he will continue to speak out against injustices.

Dear Tom,
I was saddened by the comments of your black female guest about “respecting authority”. She quoted Chris Rock advising fellow black men on how to deal with cops: Yes sir, thank you sir, won’t happen again sir, etc. Although I agree with her and Chris Rock’s pragmatism, let us call it nothing else than that. Respect has to be earned, not given to every Tom, Dick, Harry or Alice that puts on a police uniform.

This nonsense about respecting their position and deferring to them is just nonsense. When some one does something wrong, you call them on it. We know that power corrupts, and absolute power, absolutely corrupts. Was it racism or power that Officer Crowley exhibited. I think it was a little bit of both, and both are WRONG That is why we have your

The whole gates matter became toxic the moment race was introduced. It cannot be discussed freely.

“The officer asked the man to calm down twice on the porch, the second time, with a pair of handcuffs out.”

Yea, just because you have the power to arrest someone, to seize them against their will and physically remove them from their home, to deny them their freedom, to, in effect, legally kidnap them – doesn’t mean you have to exercise that power. He had a gun and could also have diffused the situation with a bullet to the head. What he should have done is try to diffuse the situation verbally (not physically, an arrest) and, in the end, just leave, just leave the man on HIS PROPERTY, voicing his opinion (which is his right).

He could have even smiled and waved as he drove off.

There are many unknowns in the Gates arrest story. We can speculate that Gates in his home might have felt very territorial and empowered by his professorial status. He was probably sick and tired and perhaps exasperated at having to break into his own home under those circumstances. Gibbs on the other hand was responding to a 911 about a break and enter involving two men, Gates and his driver. Gibbs was in a difficult, possibly dangerous situation and it seems reasonable for him to follow the as then unidentified Gates into the kitchen to monitor his actions and perhaps to determine if there was another threat in the form of the second man. It is easy to see how this escalated into absurdity without playing the race card and there is plenty of blame to go around. What is surprising and disappointing is Obama passing judgment after admitting both ignorance of the particular situation and his probable bias.

Stein

“It is easy to see how this escalated into absurdity without playing the race card and there is plenty of blame to go around. What is surprising and disappointing is Obama passing judgment after admitting both ignorance of the particular situation and his probable bias.”

Yes, but Obama focused correctly on the absurdity of ARRESTING a middle-aged man with a cane on his own property. He mentioned the historical context, so one could understand the emotions triggered.

I mean “Sgt. Crowley”, not “Gibbs” in the preceding post.
Stein

Were the questions prescreened, leaving Obama to answer the question about Gates, and answer it last? Did he set it up like that? There was some sort of confusion such that another questioner was slipped in first, remember?
I thought the president was a little relieved to have a question away from the health insurance issue; he seemed to me glad to be able to add his presidential recognition of the fact that people of color, blacks “and Latinos,” he said, are profiled, unfairly. And he managed to take a stand with a specific instance, involving a friend, so he had a feel for it, you might say, warming him to the matter.
I would have been disappointed if he had passed up the opportunity to speak about the situation. His word “Stupid” might not be the right word, but “stupid” can mean many things, such as, “if you mess with this guy, you’ll find out he is well-known and highly articulate and not afraid to use the airways, and you’ll probably wish you had proceeded differently, regardless of circumstances” (circumstances the president said he did not totally know).
“Stupid” could mean stupid totally separate from whether the arrest was warranted, procedures were followed, all that.

Having watched the CNN interview and having worked with the mentally ill, I can say without a doubt that Gates shows all the signs of serious mental deficiences. He could really use a complete psych exam. His temperment is clearly volatile and his thought process prone to irrationality.

“Having watched the CNN interview and having worked with the mentally ill, I can say without a doubt that Gates shows all the signs of serious mental deficiences. He could really use a complete psych exam. His temperment is clearly volatile and his thought process prone to irrationality.”

Yes, black folks should just say “Yes, sir” and “Yes, Mam’” like in the old movies. Meanwhile, on trashy white afternoon TV talk shows, white folks just said, “@#$%^&#@@^#**$!!!!”

Wow, it’s amazing how many people are making this into things it is not. One person is bashing the police saying things like Professor Gates was kidnapped. Get a grip Gail your so off base it’s not funny. Then we have someone saying Mr. Gates is mentally ill. What! Now that’s offensive. He lost his cool and now he’s getting defensive.

First off Professor Gates was wrong, he should have just let it go, period. Sgt. Crowley was also wrong in in letting this get out of hand resulting in the arrest. Was this racial profiling? I don’t think so.

As for the issue of the cop following Professor Gates into his house, well until he produced ID he was suspect. Age has nothing to do with it. For instance recently in California the police had violent altercation with a 68 year old man who was armed and was trying to kill them. IT turned out this man was a life long criminal with a history of extreme violence and is now being investigated for mutable murders going back 30 years.

I still think the cop was wrong however and this was more about bad police work.

The other issue is how long has Professor Gates lived in this house? How is it possible that he and his neighbors did not know each other? This is a sad thing, I think.

Gates strikes me as a guy who’s used to getting stroked. He lives a coddled life in academia where his contact with the plebians is limited to those who serve him his meals. Seen but never heard. He comes off as elitest. My guess is that he’s an arugula guy. No wonder he avoids contact with his neighbors.

Arnold are you trying to be confrontational? Because if you are it’s working. You don’t know what Professor Gates is like. I have heard him speak and one thing he does not come off as is elitist, at least me.

By the way you spelled “elitist” wrong.

Why was Gates referring to the officer’s momma? He’s got a superiority complex, at a minimum. The guy should have been tasered.

Thanks for the spell-check. You spelled “you’re” wrong in the post before your most recent. Pleasure to return the favor.

Goes to show the world the double standards the U.S. still holds, minorities are told to be silient say nothing, even with a percieved injustice going on and our prez is supposed to say nothing about injustices in our country yet, speak out on other countries injustices and people complain he is not doing enough.

there is many videos showing police abusing there power, beating and abusing, harassing minorities yet very little gets done about this. even when more and more people are using there phones to record such acts.

A officer of the law does not have the right to abused, beat, and arrest someone for speaking, As the KKK uses this right when they have protected rally.

the below that seem not to be covered anymore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IKy-WSZMklc

Look at the post for 11:15 where a neighbor of Gates’s posts, knows him and where he likely is now. For all I know, a neighbor called who knows him quite well but did not recognize the limousine returning him from China and the chauffeur, if that’s the scenario.
As to “mental deficiencies,” “temperament volatile,” and “thought process prone to irrationality,” oh, somebody stepped in a swamp there. Chiropractors think misaligned spines are the cause of an awful lot, dentists think teeth are the cause of an awful lot, people who work with the mentally ill think their field is ground zero. Without having seen the CNN interview I can well imagine how Gates sprung this comment out of Gail. Yet my impression as a PBS viewer and general reader is Gates has accommodated the way his mind/body works to the world at large with huge success.
And OnPoint Radio could run a whole week of programs on cultural as well as police profiling as regards various kinds of mental issues. I’d say: Walk in the person’s shoes a month or so before being so sure they need professional re-styling (or medication). What would be crazy for you might be highly adaptive for this professor and useful for us all (most of the time, anyway).

(Yawn) my silent response.

I find the politics of this whole situation very interesting. Jack is all wrong, this is not right vs. left. This is left vs. left. Unions, who supported Obama by large numbers, and police unions in particular, are picking up the cause of this officer. They are trying to force Obama to apologize publicly for his ignorant, self-admitted, statement.

Look at where the real criticism is coming of Obama so far during this presidency. It’s amazingly more from the left than the right. They feel betrayed by Obama. Betrayed by the Bush policies he’s kept in place, by his flip-flops or timidity on healthcare reform and environmental regulation, by his cowtowing to Wall Street, and etc. And this is just his first 6 months with a supermajority in both houses of Congress. The left feels lied to and let down. That’s the political drama going on right now.

“Yea, just because you have the power to arrest someone, to seize them against their will and physically remove them from their home, to deny them their freedom, to, in effect, legally kidnap them…”

Legally kidnapping? Where do you get this stuff?

And again, freedom of speech is NOT the issue here. Mouthing off to an officer is free speech to be sure, but it undoubtedly increasing your chances of arrest as opposed to, say, keeping quiet and maintaining a respectful tone. (I would probably consider “mouthing off” akin to the alleged comments made by Gates about the officer’s mother). It is similar to mouthing off to a judge in a court of law which will get you removed from the court and fined.

Clearly it was a bad decision to arrest Professor Gates.

From all accounts by those who actually know Henry Gates or who are just acquaintances, Professor Gates is a genuinely nice guy.

Let’s put aside race, ego and the initial motivation for Sergeant Crowley to cross Skip’s threshold.

Professor Gates’ identity had been established at this point.

Once he did enter Skip Gates’ house Sergeant Crowley was probably seized by knowledge of his error, and fearing for his career he turned on his heel, and tried to evade responsibility for his actions.

Had Sergeant Crowley at this point taken the professional and respecful step of apologizing for his impulsiveness and returned to the porch he could have completed his business without tanking the prestige of the Cambridge Police Department. (Though the incident may well serve man’s greater good)

Furthermore, and it’s perhaps telling that Sergeant Crowley resorted to his next step so reflexively, he, did necessitate Henry Louis Gates to follow him outside to establish directly his identity and then’arrested to silence,’ Henry Louis Gates.

It is similar to mouthing off to a judge in a court of law which will get you removed from the court and fined.

No sorry, getting lippy with a cop is not the same as an officer of the court. You’re not held in contempt of the court for breaking with the rules of the court.

While it is obvious that Professor Gates made a mistake as I have already said, Sargent Crowley had no cause to arrest him. Which is why the charges were dropped in less than a day.

“Yea, just because you have the power to arrest someone, to seize them against their will and physically remove them from their home, to deny them their freedom, to, in effect, legally kidnap them…”

This statement is off the charts in being absurd. Do you really believe in what your saying here?

Obama is going to have to apologize for calling the Cambridge police force stupid. Even though I don’t think he was wrong for commenting on the situation, his choice of words were not very Presidential. He needs the police unions to get reelected.

Federal Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke said: “We do expect to see positive job creation, uh, near the end of this year, early next year…”

Does he realize that we need 150,000 new jobs every month merely to keep pace with our nation’s third world rate of population explosion? Thus, if fewer than 150,000 net new jobs open up in a given month then we do not have “positive job creation” for that month.

With that in mind, it seems unlikely that our nation’s economy will produce real positive job creation for quite some time, if ever.

Rest easy Frank. With rationed healthcare on the way, that population issue is going to take care of itself.

Tom,

I am disappointed that you and your guests universally supported HLG’s view of the events on his porch. Just like Obama and Patrick, you voiced comments based on incomplete facts and assumption.

That said, HLG’s actions since the event remind me of Shakespere….”the lady she doth protest too much”

This is a hot issue…it will not go away. Please be more balanced and open minded during your discussion of this and other issues.

Regards,

Bob Barnshaw

President Obama is supposed to be this brilliant inspiring speaker so: he could have taken this as a teachable moment and made an inspiring comment about putting racism behind us. Or after admitting he was a friend of Gates and that he did not know the details of what happened, it may have been smarter to end the sentence by saying “so I have no comment on the subject”. But instead he calls the Cambridge Police stupid!? Odd choice because that did not exactly bring us together or heal the wounds of racism.
So much for the “smartest guy in the room” argument. May be the teleprompter broke again and he was on his own.

bottom line, is most whites will side with the cop esp conservatives because they never have to experiences indignity by the police. As most minorities and whites and others who seen those indignity against minorities.

Bottom line, the cop had no business to arrest gates after he found him to be the owner of the house. we allow kkk to yell scream and say racial slurs at others while being protected by the police under freedom of speech.

bottom line Crowley saw nothing wrong with his actions and would do it the same way shows signs of racial bias and abuse of power.

bottom line His fellow cops supported his actions with no criticism what so ever against him shows the never rat mentality in the police forces across the country.

bottom line most minorities know most cops don’t protect them or even serve them and of course don’t trust the police cause even if a officer did something wrong an fellow police officer 9 out of 10times wont report it. Be it a good yes sir, no sir, does not mean crap if the cops is going to be a toolbag. how many investigations come out, videos, witness come and say what the cop stated is false and prove it to be. yet the cop stays on the force.

bottom line if some are going to say you have to be silent when u feel a cop has wrong you or taken away your rights abuse the power there were entrusted , than u have no right to criticize any other country for their cops and military doing the same thing.

bottom line some people like to pretend that racial profiling never happens, the cops are always good,cops never abuse there power, but have no experience what so ever in being racially profile so have no clue on what goes on.

Obama was right to say arresting gates was stupid, since the officer found him to be the owner.

hear is gates response to this since all we are hearing is the cops(typical)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpyOsUUA1BQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp

“As most minorities and whites and others who seen those indignity against minorities with side with gates.”

Apparently Mike you missed President Obama’s press conference in which he said he misspoke. He praised Sargent Crowley after having a phone conversation with him this afternoon. Crowley suggested that the tree of them get together for a beer, the President, Gates, and Crowley, Obama said OK. I think this shows that whatever you think of Obama’s policies at least he has the decency to admit he makes mistakes and too reach out.
It seems that they also both have a sense of humor, which is refreshing.

I think it would be good if instead of these two ending up in court suing each other, that Professor Gates and Sargent Crowley should do a few nights of an open public forum to deal with this subject: race, class, and police relationships in the community.

Sara wrote:
“I don’t think it’s appropriate for people like myself, I’m not a person of color, to speak to the experiences of people of color. None of us were there so we don’t know what really happened. How can those of us who are white really know what we are talking about when speaking to any experience of a person of color?”

Sara, I’m a bit puzzled by your comment. What you say – isn’t that true of every human being? And, are people of color a monolith who have One Single Experience that is totally different from whites or others who are not people of color? You’ll find a diverse range of experiences within every group. I mean, would you be surprised to find that there were blacks who owned slaves too? I have a feeling your comment is motivated by a bit of political correctness that is typical of liberals when it comes to certain issues. This kind of self-censoring is not healthy, IMO, and leads to brushing of issues under the carpet.

And do you feel qualified to speak about issues strictly related only to your gender, assuming you’re a female?

I’ve been reflecting on today’s program for quite some time since this morning. I hate to say it, but for the first time in years of listening to On Point, I’m upset with Tom Ashbrook. Why was so much time devoted to the Gates incident when there were(are)so many national/global issues that need to be discussed? I heard Tom referring back to Gates time and time again throughout the hour. Someone else mentioned Michael Jackson in a comment above – there’s an analogy here, journalism-wise. Certainly racial profiling and racism (if that’s what was involved here)are important and need to be addressed. However I believe the Gates spotlight should have been turned off after the first pass at discussing the events that occurred.

Professor Gates was in his own home.

Article 4 anyone?

Case closed.

I am a middle-aged white male who has lived in a diverse urban area for most of my life.

About fifteen years ago I was driving with an
African American male friend through a predomonantly
inner-city neighborhood and was stopped in the left lane at a red light at an intersection that did not allow left hand turns.

A police car pulled up within inches of my back bumper
and turned on his siren. I mistakenly thought the squad car was rushing to an emergency so when the light turned green I turned left to allow the squad to pass.

The squad car followed me inches from my back bumper so I pulled to the curb and stopped. A white officer approached my window and rapped his nightstick aggressively on my glass. His partner, a African American officer, approached my friend’s side of the car
with his hand on his holster.

As I rolled down my window and explained to the officer
that I was only trying to let him pass, He raised his nightstick and asked if I was resisting a police officer.

I was then led to the rear of my car with a raised nightstick to my head and fingerprinted.

As the incident played out, the result was only a traffic ticket for an illegal left turn.

Afterwards as we were driving the less than a mile to my home, my middle-aged African-American friend could not stop laughing. He said ” Steve you should have realized that as a white man you have no business being in this neighborhood during the evening (7 PM). My friend said that the onlt time the police see a white and black man together in this neighborhood after working hours was for drug dealing.

I understand why the police acted this way but am still upset at the memory. My friend and I both did exactly what the police officers asked and still, in my opinion, came very close to being to being rapped in the head.

Profiling is a fact of life. Pattern recognition, I believe, is how the police do their very difficult work.
This will not change until all people live together in intentional community.

I’m troubled by the comments during the show that when the police talk to you, you should simply do what they demand and not “talk back”, etc. Should Rosa Parks have gotten out of the seat in the front of the bus when a cop told her to do so? Should James Meridith have stopped trying to enter the university of mississippi when the cops ordered him to do so?

Should the incredibly brave freedom fighters have turned around at the bridge in Selma when Bull Conner ordered them to do so? Should the freedom riders have gotten off the greyhound buses and out of the bus stations when the cops ordered them to do so?

Gates’ temperment doesn’t matter. What matters is that a cop can and does arrest someone simply because the cop doesn’t like what that someone says. And that becomes espically troublesome because cops don’t like anything that Afro-Americans say.

Was this removed this morning because I have latino name?
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
Message to The Producers of On Point

Why cannot you have Architect Richard Gage from San Francisco as a Guest. You will make a history. He will be in Boston/Cambridge to speak at Harvard on Sept 10, 2009.

Maybe we can find an Answer to Why We Will Be in Afghanistan for the next 43 years, until we go broke.

++++++++++++++++
Then it’s the red-eye to Cambridge, MA where the Harvard School of Graduate Design hosts the representative of the controversial evidence bearing 700 A&E’s for 9/11 Truth – all on Sept 10th.
+++
Mr. Gage will also appear in Australia in Sydney Nov 12 & 14, Melbourne Nov 17, and Brisbane Nov 19. And will present in Wellington, New Zealand Nov. 21 where it will be springtime in the Southern Hemisphere! Yes, they are waking up to 9/11 Truth everywhere.
+++++
Richard Gage will be back to Denver Aug 15 to be on KBDI PBS TV to at least 200,000 viewers who will see “9/11: Blueprint for Truth” on their tubes for 2 hours as it is used for the pledge drive premiums. We will be on live during the pledge breaks. We will also be giving a presentation in Boulder Aug 16 and hopefully Colorado Springs on Aug 14 as well.
+++++
Mr. Gage will, of course, be in New York City for the 8th anniversary of the most tragic day in American history. The Real Change and Transparency Conference promises to be a potent “stimulus” for healing and transformation. We will be joined by Erik Lawyer, Citizens Investigation Team, Daniel Sunjata, William Pepper, Kevin Barrett, Ellen Brown, Jason Bermas, Steve Alten, Mike Berger, family members, and other dedicated 9/11 Truth activists.

Posted by Felipe, on July 24th, 2009 at 7:17 am EDT

I don’t feel sorry for Gates. His uncooperative, uncitizenlike behavior toward those officers simply trying to do their jobs does nothing to advance racial understanding and harmony. Respect is a two way street regardless of the color of one’s skin.

Far more provocative and interesting was Jack’s comment about hoping that the US soldier being held by the Taliban is not subjected to the same treatment the US accords its prisoners, including unlimited detentions. I absolutely agree.

Thus far (and by God’s Grace) I have had only one interaction with an on duty police officer, and by the way, I’m a person of color.

I jumped a red light in Waltham, MA (unknowingly) and soon after I saw the blue/red lights and as per the law, pulled over, with a cop car behind me.

Two officers approached, either side of my car. I was terrified of thinking what made them pull me over, and wondering if I would get a ticket (they had all the right to do it), yet I didnt realise yet that I had jumped a red light.

The officer on my side, approached me, asked me my name, dirvers lic, if car was mine, where I was coming from, where I was going, is there anything objectionable in the car, and if I had any brush with traffic violations/law.

I answered all the questions with my utmost possible respect to their authority, and when he came back (after running the check on my lic.)

I politely asked, Sir I’m not sure what made you stop me? then the officer replied,”you have had jumped a red light”. I duely apologized and said, i never intended to do it, and asked again, “will be i ticketd for this”.

Officer responded in negetive, and said “I’m going to issue you a warning, be careful now onwards”

and I thanked the officers and was on my merry way. issue closed. However if i have had acted in any way differently (I mean rudely) I’m sure I would have been ticketd and possibly arrested.

Moral of the story: NO POLICE OFFICER just wants TO ARREST YOU because you coperate with him.

I wish Prof. Gates learns a lesson in some moral responsibilities too.

Isn’t there anything of more consequence that you could discuss? Professor Gates’ and Sergeant Crowley’s interactions have already been milked for everything they were worth!

Police officers indeed put their lives on the line every day. That being said, police officers are human beings and they can make mistakes while interacting with anyone, regardless of race.

Last summer, my son was helping a friend who had been drinking. The ill/drunk friend was so ill that my son and his friends called the ill boy’s parents and also called the rescue squad, and continued to minister to their ill friend. The local police had intercepted the 911 call and went to the location where the ill boy and friends were. My son and his friends, lifeguards trained by the Red Cross, had been monitoring their ill friend’s vital signs, and keeping him in a posture to protect his airway. When the police officers told my son and his friends to leave the scene, neither my son nor his other helping friends complied with the order. Instead, they said that they would wait with their ill friend untill he was in an ambulance. My son and his friends, who are Eagle Scouts, were respectful and, until being told to leave their ill friend, had been very cooperative. At any rate, my son and his friend were arrested, placed in handcuffs, put into the back of a squad car, driven to the police station, booked, and placed in a holding cell. At no point in time was my son read his rights.

Three months later my son’s case was thrown out of court in less than five minutes. The judge reading the case materials noted that both the parents of the ill boy, as well as the ill boy, had written eloquent letters thanking my son and his other arrested friends for SAVING HIS LIFE by their actions in caring for him.

My son is WHITE. The other boy who was arrested is WHITE. A third boy who was active in this incident, but who was not arrested, is BLACK, even though this young man specifically asked the police officers “why don’t you arrest me too?”

Police officers have a difficult job to do. They are human. They make mistakes. They make mistakes without regard to race at times. They also make mistakes with regard to race, as in this instance. The arresting officers were afraid to arrest a
Black youth for no real cause, but did not feel the same reticence in arresting and jailing White youths. I have talked with all of the youths involved in this incident. They were and are still now all very good friends. The Black youth whom I cited is a wonderful young man who is one of our high school valedictorians, and he is very verbal in stating that he wants to be recognized for his achievements on their own merit, and he does not want any help just because he is Black. He was very indignant when his White friends were arrested and he was not, even though he was just as “complicit” as they were.

I challenge you to post this on your website. Everyone, regardless of her or his color, religion, ethnic origin, sexual orientation, or what ever elee, needs to be respected and treated equally under the law. My sons have been taught to not be confrontational, disrespectful, or profane to anyone in authority, including police officers. Still, my son was treated like a second-class citizen for saving his friend’s life. My son says that he would do it again if the situation presented itself.

[...] [...]

“Yea, just because you have the power to arrest someone, to seize them against their will and physically remove them from their home, to deny them their freedom, to, in effect, legally kidnap them…”
———————————-
“Legally kidnapping? Where do you get this stuff?

And again, freedom of speech is NOT the issue here.”

—————–

“This statement is off the charts in being absurd. Do you really believe in what your saying here?”

———————

There is nothing absurd about the term “legally kidnap.” Language is very important. Language can illuminate reality or mask reality. It is often very useful to rephrase terms that have become all too common and familiar to us. To rephrase the word “arrest” as “legally kidnap” brings out the reality and seriousness of the act. We empower certain individuals to grab other individuals against their will, drag them from their home, and hold them in another location. An act that would normally be called “kidnapping” is here made legal and called an “arrest.”

Arresting someone is an extreme act, a physical act, and should be taken very seriously and should be an action of last resort. In a free democracy there should be a very high bar set for what can get a citizen of the United States of America arrested – “legally kidnapped” – by its government. In a land where you can get on your soapbox in the public square and emotionally air your views and not be “legally kidnapped.” Where the KKK can voice their impassioned words in public and not be “legally kidnapped.” Certainly, you would agree that a homeowner should not be “legally abducted” off his porch by his government for exercising his First Amendment right. This is a freedom of speech issue.

This is a very serious matter. This isn’t high school and shouldn’t be reduced to high school terminology – the small guy better lick the boots of the big guy or the big guy will get physical with him. Or do you secretly wish you lived in a fascist state and our police officers – our public servants – were the Gestapo? You need to look within and check your fantasy life here and your beliefs and understanding about power – central to all human relationships – and start appreciating what is supposed to distinguish this land from other places.

13 minutes of Gates talking on the phone about the incident here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CpyOsUUA1BQ&NR=1&feature=fvwp

Give Me a break. Gates is full of himself! I have Both races in my family. We all know not to follow a cop and “mouth off”. The Rich Fat Cat needs to get a clue. I take that back, I,m sure there is a Book or Show he can milk on this “injustice”. It wouldn’t be so lucrative if Gates diden’t have a real Mug shot.
For the Pres. to step into this shows a lack of gravitas. And go on a diatribe at a talk about health care shows a a lack of foresight. I agree with the caller that said that health care was more important. The Pres should have known better. I’m sure he will soon try to slip out of his comment and look as weak as his slide in polls are now. Heath Care Reform will go to the wind like it did when it was mishandled by the Clintons to my chagrin. There are too many fat hands in the money pot for there to be any real change in health care.

‘We all know not to follow a cop and “mouth off”.’

Sad statement. He was arrested on his porch, not chasing a cop down the street. In America, we should hear the statement, “We all know that in our country you have a right to voice your opinion, to file a complaint against an officer, to request an officer’s name and badge number.” This is the Land of The Free and not the Land of The Scared. How many of you would have been automatically and unthinkingly supporting any cop, even if in this situation he had taken out his billy club and knocked out half his teeth or took out his gun and put a bullet in his head? I’m sure there would still be excuse-makers and rationalizers and spinners.

How much time in jail do you want Gates to get? 6 months? 10 years? The death penalty?

Obama’s callous joke that he would get “shot at” were he to be seen breaking into the White House just about topped it off for me. Of all the parties who acted poorly here: the woman who called in her neighbor, the officer who unjustifiably arrested a citizen for disorderly conduct, and Prof. Gates who hurled insults at a law enforcement officer who was (at least initially) trying to offer protection, I believe that our very own President acted the most recklessly.

I was disappointed in obama calling the police officers stupid, but find it reveals his true nature with an “off the cuff” remark.

obama didnt call the police officer stupid but arresting gates as stupid, frenkn amazing what some people get mad at, “typical” “stupid” oh my. if he said gates actions where stupid you wouldnt hear anything from these people.

these double standards reaks to high heaven. i seen on foxes news a officer saying blacks commit a cirte and than go have watermellon and chicken.

Point is it the KKK can have a rally spewing hates, slurs, and is protected by the police and there first amendment rights than by no means if gates was being loud with the officer should he have gotten arrested. Unless some think this double standard is ok.

Point is very few people are aware that minorities have to deal with or choose to not believe it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY04gIruZ4E

brockton Ma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrQTDeI6myM

Expanded Consciousness, while your entitled too your opinions I think your extreme and framing this in a way that only adds flames to the fire instead of looking for ways to engage in this topic.

The police are not “legally kidnapping” people as you say when they are being arrested. Some do so without reading your rights. Some do not. Like most working stiffs some cops who do their jobs well and some do not.

Now if you want to frame this in the lens of poor African American males and how there is a huge disparity in how they are treated when compared to the same social class of whites then that would make your comments valid even if the wording is absurd.

Professor Gates screwed up he comes from a privileged academic class and became indignant with the officer Crowley. Did Crowley have to arrest him, no. That was Crowley’s mistake and the DA saw this and dropped the charges. Now, Gates is no TV calling Crowley a rogue cop, that was not called for.

Then you go on to say 7 out 10 police are bad.
I’m not a big fan of the police, but your off base and wrong. Your bringing your own personal agenda of cop bashing into this.

Some of my neighbors are cops and while I’m having cookouts with them they are nice people and good neighbors.

By the way EC, next time you need a cop, I hope you think long and hard about what your saying here.

The police are just part of justice system, now if you want to deal with disparaging aspects of it as a whole, then that is an interesting conversation.

Racism will always be among us no matter how much we would like to see it gone. No matter how hard you try to assimilate everyone into just plain Americans, there will always be people who want to be seen as special. I am an American who just happens to be white. I get along with people because I try to walk by a higher standard, love thy neighbor as thy self. There is in this country of ours, people who want to be special because they can not stand being just Americans. They want to be, white-Americans, African-Americans, Latino-Americans, Euro-Americans, Korean-Americans and so on. As long as this keeps up there will always be racism in America.

Putney while your at another cook-out please ask these cops if they saw any injustices committed by other officers? than ask if they reported it or not? common reasoning if their honesty is you never rat on a fellow officer or i don’t do it. Even Crowly stated if it happen again he do the same thing, do you not see something wrong with that statement? Obama did what he did to save face cause its something most people dont want to admit it happens. They have been far serious infringement by police officers that never make it to the mainstream media why?

bet you be surprised of the answers you get i have cops in my family as well and know a few cops on a personal level for them to tell it as it is. and nice and all, but far different when they put on that uniform.

The justice system is flawed, we can look at many examples how the rich are able to get around it yet the poor are not, or return rates from people getting out of jail and going right back in. Even in jury duty you can see this ” a jury of your peers” unlikely, where one man can plead the 5th and only talk when he is ready and make deals with the D.A. and take months to finally get arrest or walk free, as the poorer man gets roughed up in the backroom force to admit to thing they didnt commit or be subject to more time. Can you truly say that in our justice department that charges,judgments have no racial motivations behind them or that with a court appointed lawyers your going to get the same justices that cost millions of dollars to hire?

The L.A. riots didn’t come from nowhere as being in cali there was built up anger in the minority communities and very little in white communities. History channel had some good shows about this if your interested.

Go to the south west and ask Latinos if they dont get harass by police or profiled many exmples as that as well.

“By the way EC, next time you need a cop, I hope you think long and hard about what your saying here” what this so they wont do there job if you to trust them or respect them? So by that reasoning someone mad about the way the government is treating it, shouldn’t be helped by the government?

watch the history channel “gangland is one” Msnbc “lock up is another, go to a urban neighborhood and ask people if they trust the police? ask them their reasoning for it as well? why when a crime happens few if not any talk to the police? as Jack pointed out minorities are often more likely to go to jail for the same thing there counter-part do. The prisons systems are crowded and full with far more minorities per cap in cali and in the country, and the state of cali pays more for prisons than education. how many trumped up charges get thrown out in court? or how many people are forced to plead guilty for crime they didn’t commit? (Not saying everyone is innocents)

It is hard to explain to people who have not experience harassment by officers to understand what others have to deal with. Unlike the average Joe a bad day for a cop can have serious consequences to the people there supposed to protect. As i been respectful to cops only to have them act in way that is seen to be racially motivated.

your welcome to keep your bias that all cops are great guys looking out for everyone,and would never do anything wrong and ill keep my bias of the opposite. You have what you seen and experiences and i have what i seen and experiences but remember. As i can understand that this would happen in Missouri but was shocked when i saw it happen in Mass.

We can keep the way some here are thinking that “cop good no matter what he does” and i can certainly guarantee, there will be more incidents still to come and most minorites will not trust police.

just imagine that if that was not gates the guy could have been thrown in jail for 6 months please explain how that is right, fair, or even justice, and crowlys response he do the same thing again?

Until you can explain why a KKK member has a right to form a rally and spew hate speech “loud btw” against minorities, jews, and others protected by the police, and our first amendment with no consequences for these actions yet a black man yells at a cop and can go to jail for 6 months on his porch than its very hard for me and many others to see your point of view.

Removing a posting about 9/11

Shame on WBUR/On Point people if they ever removed a posting that was about the events of 9/11

This is the Land of The Free and the Brave PNR Members

There is no subject that we are afraid of discussing…

What if we were all wrong?

This all seems very similar to the Simpson episode. Whites support law and order and blacks support their own. I’m not saying Skipper has killed anyone, only that celebrities think the law should be different for them. And Skip is a celebrity in his own mind.

Putney -

“I think your extreme and framing this …”

I am not framing this one incident. I am describing the reality of police work. We empower the police to be physical and to enact physical acts that would otherwise be illegal: to physically detain people against their will, to remove people from their home or from a public space and bring them to another location, to chase after people, to disable individuals by hitting them with a billy club, to kill individuals with a gun and a bullet. This is very serious power to be entrusted with. It is a power that needs to be overseen by very explicit rules and laws. The definition of “abduct” and “kidnap” is to “carry off by force.” What do you think an arrest is? It is to legally carry someone off by force.

Professor Henry Loise Gates, Jr was engaged in a verbal act.

Officer Crowley resorted to a physical act.

The ridiculous wording in the MA (and many other states’) statute for “disorderly conduct” goes beyond being physically threatening and includes being annoying (“creating an annoyance”). Annoying!!! Absurd! Absolutely an invitation to police abuse!!! This point was made on Real Time.

Great commentary on the most recent Bill Maher Real Time show:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sy5jmisHJhQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bo8eTtOuBQg

“By the way EC, next time you need a cop, I hope you think long and hard about what your saying here.”

So, how does this work? I need a cop. I call a cop. The officer comes and helps and does his job by following the rules and by using reason. I am grateful. And, according to you, I will then think … what? “The cops are great. They can do whatever they want. I won’t ever criticize them. I don’t think free speech is important anymore. I think what is much more important is that if a cop is ever annoyed at anyone, for any reason, then they can use their power to get physical with them, however they choose.” Uh, sorry. Things aren’t all or nothing. I will show my gratitude to officers in other ways than by turning a blind eye or pretending I am a part of the blue wall of silence.

“Then you go on to say 7 out 10 police are bad.”

Putney, you are under arrest!!! What is your address? Come out on your porch, please. I am making a citizen’s arrest of Putney Swope. I hate to do it. But, I have no choice.

[1] I never wrote “7 out 10 police are bad,” Mike did in the very first post.
[2] I am “confused and surprised” by your comment
[3] I am “annoyed” by your comment.
[4] You posted your comment in public, on a public forum. Those reading this are also “very alarmed.”
In short, you have created a public disturbance, I am charging you with “disorderly conduct.”

You have the right to remain silent …

“This all seems very similar to the Simpson episode. Whites support law and order and blacks support their own. I’m not saying Skipper has killed anyone”

What a disgusting comment. Stay in your cartoon world.

Too much policing, too many cops.

Too much searching bags, too many security scanners.

Too much arrogance from the police, too many police details protecting Orange Cones from nobody.

Too much opposition when the town lays-off a few police officers, just because they are not needed and/or we cannot afford it vs. 10000 pink slips in a factory with a stroke of a pen.

Too many arrests. Too many Cop shows on TV.

Too much “extracurricular activity” payments to police officers on the side (well crafted overtime pay).

Too many police cars, running idle with no reason whatsoever.

Too many police cars showing up for a minor incident of one drunk guy sitting on a side walk.

Too many flashing blue lights on the highway, causing traffic jams for reasons that have nothing to do with highway safety.

Too much police, period.

Expanded you’re putting words into my mouth. You’re also painting the police with a broad brush which similar to a conservative saying all liberals are socialist.
I don’t think this is way to approach this subject.
You don’t like the police that’s fine. Don’t call them the next time your house gets robbed,or you get mugged, or you have an emergency. Call the park rangers.

I never said all the police were stand up people. There are bad police and good ones as there are in the general public. You make some pretty outrageous claims and then sarcastically try to insult my point of view by demeaning having a cookout with my neighbor’s. First off I’m not that familiar with these people, so stop making assumptions just because I have neighbor’s who happen to be police. Second I already said I THOUGHT THAT CROWLEY SHOULD NOT HAVE ARRESTED GATES. Again here we have a very good example of a person who has trouble with nuance in regards to discussing a topic.

Gates seemed to have over reacted, Crowley should have walked away. I think Gates pushed it to far.

As far as the Blue wall of silence goes, well most police forces are very much like the military and there is a chain of command. You don’t go above it.

You seem to really hate the police. To bad you might need them one day. I look at them with suspicion, but I still respect the job they do. It’s not an easy job.
I have a lot issues on how police have become more like paramilitary units and how they deal with civil disobedience, but that’s not what happened here.

We really do not know the full story. So until we do, and we might never know it, I think your entitled to your extreme viewpoints on this subject. I don’t agree with them. Your making assumptions about Crowley and Gates, your taking sides. I did too, but Gates has turned this into political theater and he is wrong.

I suggest listening to Radio Bostons show on this topic.
Glen Lowery was on and he really helped me see this in a different light. Professor Lowery is a friend of Gates’ and he was able to take a very interesting broad view on the event.

Putney -

“You make some pretty outrageous claims and then sarcastically try to insult my point of view by demeaning having a cookout with my neighbor’s.”

You are no longer invited to respond to my posts if you refuse to do the simple act of reading who each of the posts are written by. This is the second time in a row that you have taken Mike’s posts and attributed them to me. You now owe me two apologies.

“Putney while your at another cook-out please ask these cops if they saw any injustices committed by other officers?”

Underneath that post is “Posted by Mike.” It does not say, “Posted by Expanded consciousness.” I did not make mention you cookouts, Mike did. (And, by the way, in Mike’s post I don’t see where he demeaned your cookouts.)

Since you cannot get that right I’ll assume your other comments are not in reaction to my actual posts, for none of your comments follow from what I have written.

“We really do not know the full story.”

We know enough facts. Gates did not get physical with Crowley, did not lay a hand on him, did not obstruct his movements, did not threaten physical violence, did not use profanity.

Compare these two cases:

In Tehran, protestors beat up the police, throw fire bombs and brick sized rocks and we call it “peaceful” and cry foul when the police arrests the protestors.

But here, if you have a verbal argument with a police, you are in jail.

Am I the only one who sees a problem with our Hypocracy?

I wonder if Mike thinks suing cops for stepping over the line would help. Presumably Gates wanted Crowley’s badge number for that very purpose, not that Crowley had really overstepped by that point, but Gates wanted to be sure the officer would understand that Gates, for one, would hold be holding to the highest professional standards. This would get one’s goat, especially in a heated situation. At least it would mine. It really, really would.
Most likely Crowley’s badge with his name was in full view, so by asking, Gates was making a rather combative point, especially so if the officer prides himself on being racially unbiased.
Where I live, in western Mass., officers get in bad trouble now and then for overstepping. They get sued, I believe, by the DA. In my job I get to handle days and days of testimony about brawls among drunken people in corridors and elevators where people are sneaking up and sneaking away, and people are defending one another and misremembering and what not.
I think if blacks want to get better treatment, they should join the police.
Then there is the issue of unbiased jurors: Everyone here is asked, when it is relevant, if they would treat the testimony of an officer any different because they are an officer. Lots of jurors get excused for cause with that. Jurors are also always asked if they think blacks are more likely to commit crimes than nonblacks — when it is relevant. Some people point out that statistically speaking, more blacks end up convicted, more end up jailed.
We need African Americans participating in every part of the justice system — police, lawyers, etc. — as much as possible to get this discrepancy under control, as I see it now.

Hi ellen,

Sadly the threat of a law suit is one of the few ways to change behaviors of the police and the police departments. I personally seen cops arrest people only to have the charges dropped the next day so a officer could prove a point. its very frustrating that people can complain about what police do in other countries yet stay mute when it happens in our own. i believe they just dont want to believe it.

Most cops know that the judge will more likely side with them and reports are checked normally by superiors before submitting them. the unions will always back them even when the action of the officer are proven to be wrong(Oakland bart station Ca.)(Rodney king)exmples only because there were recorded.

As you often hear that something bad could happen to the officer to justify something bad actually happening to the people they supposed to serve. Even the Police unions wanted and stated they wanted the charges not to be drop. I ask what do you think the ruling would been with rodney king if there was no one to film it? or the Bart incidents? I feel that there is many people out there that are not aware of what is really going on in some communities and what some people have to deal with.

Having more diversity in the force does help, but if the mentality of cop good, and there actions should never by questions and if it is done than force can be used to keep it that way, than nothing changes cause the new cops will be forced to conform or be blacklisted.

gates was arrested and should have not been most people can agree on this yet the officer maintains that he do it again, the police unions says they would have kept the charges(which can carry 6 months). But allowing for as i noted KKK rallies intended to incite hate, fear, and violence is protected by the first amendment and protected by police officers as well.

If this crowley is such a stand up guy than arresting a 50 plus year old man for yelling at him, with no physical threat, and finding that gates is the owner of that home he came to investigate throws question about his character. As his fellow officers agreeing with what he did throws even more questions of the police station,along with the unions thinking. As it is in mass. more financial beneficial to have 3 to 4 officers doing details than fighting crime.

empathy, understanding, and being aware of what some have to deal with which others do not will help change our systems and speaking out when this does not occur.

I believe that it is very hard for people to think that there law enforcements would do such things,

Do you think there was equal justices in the 60’s, 70’s and 80’s, 90’s or even now? there is countless infringements by police that happen all the time yet dont get reported on the news, (often unless there is a camera and even more often its local news) Even when found the officer broke the law, racially profiled very little if nothing happens to them as the unions are there to spin.

Honestly if a another officer or cop spoke out against crowley what do you think the unions, and other cops response would be to him. or the attacks that he would get.

yes there are many who rather not call the police if a crime occurs because of the distrust they have for them. And label the distrust of cops as extremist, yet turn a blind eye to police officers abusing there power.

As the majority of posters and people stated gates being arrested as wrong, yet the police unions, crowley and his fellow officers did not is the problem. Yes there are some really good cops, some really good politicians, some really good investment bankers, yet if the whole are corrupt or mute to injustices and problems how can you expect them not to be weary or fearful that this guys are going to screw them over.

What sad is Crowley will probably get a reward or something along those lines for doing a good job for his actions and this will only enforce to him and officers it is okay to do such things and only enforce to me and others that the cops cannot be trusted and to be weary of them. Just look at the double standards of posting gate’s mugg shot all over the main stream media, esp Foxes news even when charges were dropped.

said by a black lawyer by the name of Harold C. Hart-Nibbrig after the L.A. Riots

“When I’m out of my community I feel I am treated with suspicion. When I am in my community I feel there is no distinction being made by the police between me and the perpetrators of crime”

Expanded you’re real full of yourself. Hey I’m responding to your post without permission. Now what.

I made a mistake, but you and mike do sound a lot alike. You however seem to have the air of a self satisfied… dare I say prig. I’m trying to be polite.

I’m not stopping you or telling you can’t respond to my posts. I find that kind of defeats the point of a forum. You can ignore me, which would be the adult thing to do. But no, you decide that your in charge. That I can’t respond to your sanctimonious posts. Your the man, the forum cop. Hey forum cop I’m out on my digital porch, are you going to arrest me? Give me a break. You make these statements such as legal kidnapping and you get all hot under the collar if people object.

You used the Gates situation to make all these claims and assumptions about Crowley, which were based on assumptions, not facts.

I’m a pretty progressive person, but you come across as the worse kind of left winger, one that thinks the world revolves around them. That somehow you know better then everyone else. Maybe your wrong sometimes. Maybe what your posting is an opinion, and not a thesis.

Mike was being sarcastic could you not tell?

Mike, I agree that blacks who become officers likely end up being part of the problem. In a police department they have to be a band of brothers, a close-knit crew, much the way a military unit does. The “enemy” to some extent is an armed populace, us, added to which is the court system with every defendant’s attorney picking away at the officers on cross-examination to the absolute max. It is their job.
However, if the department is balanced, representative of the population they serve, there is a better chance. It is enough worth a try that you see the huge brouhaha about New Haven’s police department where Sotomayor voted the test which no black candidates qualified in had to stand. The high-scoring whites/Latino did not get the boost from her appeals court, but later on from the Supremes. Right? Getting qualified African American officers is part of the solution, but not the whole solution.
One other point. Where I live people are worried that black people are getting charged with crimes more serious than warranted. There is an election coming up with a few running for DA, who runs the office that decides these things. There were two men on trial — black men — where it looked very unfair. In one case, the man was represented by public counsel, charged with murder and leaving the scene; he was found not guilty except of leaving the scene (which is being appealed). I am proud of my community and of the counsel (Jewish, by the way). It got no publicity till it was over.
Meanwhile, the same time, a similar case (nobody died, but similarly after quite a bit of provocation, racial slurs, hostilities broke out and a white man was hurt), there was huge uproar, marches, media attention, money gathered to pay for the top-rung lawyers. I think that is on hold while somebody reviews statewide records on statistical fairness.
Churches are wondering what can we do?
Doing a little history, I have found that the Congregational Church in Rhode Island was agitating against the evil of slavery at the time the Triangle Trade was getting its start (late 1700s) with the shipping moguls in that state, piggybacking on the privateering skills and organization from the Revolution. That church was apparently not at all effective. Not at all.
I have a second thing, Mike. You keep pointing about the KKK and their First Amendment right to foment hate and trouble.
What can people do?

Hi ellen,

i point out the kkk to show the argument that yelling at a police officer is warranted being arrested and how silly it is since the same would not apply and does not apply when a KKK member does so. what we can do is point this out.

pointing double standards like this and being aware on what is going on in your community and the treatment and ill treatment is what changes things. As like you stated about those two cases going on and with information about the treatment of them you can make a hopefully better decision as who you wish to have for your DA

Putney, i agree to disagree as your expenience have given you your view of the police as mine has done the same. Luckly enough onpoint allows everyone to express it even if some see problems with others logic, be it left, right, or say independent.

As i expressed what i seen/heard from the police you may not like to hear it but that what happens and given me and many others distrust of police.

thanks,

For thinking people, here is legal precedence establishing that the charge of “disorderly conduct” should not be used by an officer to punish the constitutionally protected speech of American citizens. The police (who so often address the public in loud and authoritative tones) are not given license to, in turn, be hyper-sensitive (Crowley: “I was surprised and confused” – yea, right) and to use their physical power to be the community “verbal manners police.”

http://openjurist.org/414/us/14

414 US 14 Norwell v. City of Cincinnati Ohio
414 U.S. 14
94 S.Ct. 187
38 L.Ed.2d 170
Edward NORWELL
v.
CITY OF CINCINNATI, OHIO.
No. 72—1366.
Nov. 5, 1973.
PER CURIAM.

Petitioner Edward Norwell, on a plea of not guilty, was convicted of a violation of Cincinnati’s disorderly conduct ordinance. The charge was that petitioner ‘did unlawfully and wilfully conduct himself in a disorderly manner, with intent to annoy some person.’ The judgment of conviction was affirmed by the Ohio Court of Appeals. Further appeal to the Supreme Court of Ohio was dismissed by that court sua sponte ‘for the reason that no substantial constitutional question exists herein.’

2
We are persuaded that the ordinance, as applied to this petitioner on the facts of his case, operated to punish his constitutionally protected speech. We therefore grant certiorari and reverse.

3
The ordinance, § 901—D4 of the city’s Municipal Code, reads:

4
‘No person shall wilfully conduct himself or herself in a noisy, boisterous, rude, insulting or other disorderly manner, with the intent to abuse or annoy any person . . ..’

5
Petitioner, 69 years of age and an immigrant 20 years ago, is employed by his son who manages and is part owner of a ‘pony keg,’ a small package liquor store. Petitioner works at the pony keg every evening and helps his son ‘because it is very dangerous.’ There have been break-ins at the store on several occasions and a former owner was killed there.

6
On Christmas night, 1971, the pony keg closed about 10:30. The son drove home, but petitioner ‘wanted to take a walk and get home at 11:00 to hear the news.’ Down the street he was approached by Officer Johnson, who had been notified that a ’suspicious man’ was in the neighborhood of the pony keg. Officer Johnson testified that he approached petitioner and asked him if he lived in the area. Petitioner looked at him, ‘and then he turned around and walked away.’ The officer twice attempted to stop him, but each time petitioner threw off his arm and protested, ‘I don’t tell you people anything.’ He did not run. Petitioner then was placed under arrest for disorderly conduct. Officer Johnson said he had to ‘push the man approximately half a block to get him into the police car. He didn’t understand why he was being arrested.’

7
Petitioner testified that he ‘was far from the pony keg’ when the officer drove up in his car and called out something which petitioner did not understand.

8
‘He told me something, but I couldn’t understand . . .. I said—I asked him, ‘What do you want from me?’ He said, ‘Why are you on the street?’ I said, ‘I am walking on the street.’ After then, he said, ‘Where are you going?’ I said, ‘I go home.’ After then, he didn’t ask me anything. He was in a car. I continued to walk.’

9
The officer pursued petitioner and grabbed him. Petitioner testified, ‘I didn’t resist because I was concerned about my health and my life.’ There is no indication in the record that it was the physical act of pushing off the officer’s arm that precipitated the arrest or supported the conviction. Had this been so, one could argue, perhaps, that Mr. Norwell might have been properly charged for disorderly conduct or under a statute or ordinance that made it illegal to interfere with a police officer in the performance of his duty. That, however, is not this case. Officer Johnson testified that he ‘didn’t charge the man with resisting because I didn’t think it was a warranted cause,’ but that he arrested petitioner for ‘being loud and boisterous,’ and ‘(h)e was annoying me.’ The municipal judge found that petitioner was ‘hostile’ to the officer. ‘I’m sure (the officer) had no feeling against this man, but this man had a feeling against him, at this time, and was not at a liberty to say.’ The court proceeded to find Mr. Norwell ‘guilty of disorderly conduct with the intent to annoy’ and fined him $10 and costs ‘for being so noisy.’

10
Upon this record, we are convinced that petitioner was arrested and convicted merely because he verbally and negatively protested Officer Johnson’s treatment of him. Surely, one is not to be punished for nonprovocatively voicing his objection to what he obviously felt was a highly questionable detention by a police officer. Regardless of what the motivation may have been behind the expression in this case, it is clear that there was no abusive language or fighting words. If there had been, we would have a different case. See Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031 (1942).

11
The petition for certiorari is granted. The judgment is reversed.

“While we encourage a robust, open debate on the topic at hand, these comment threads are moderated by On Point and WBUR, and we may delete comments that we judge to be off-topic, unduly repetitive, or that descend into personal, ad hominem attacks.”

Putney Swope – “You however seem to have the air of a self satisfied… dare I say prig.”

A Prig!

“Hey I’m responding to your post without permission. Now what.”

You ignore that I qualified the request with the statement, “if you refuse to do the simple act of reading who each of the posts are written by.”

You seem to delight in the idea of acting without someone’s permission and against their will.

“I made a mistake, but you and mike do sound a lot alike.”

Two (and make that now three) apologies were requested from you, none were offered by you.

My arguments and Mike’s arguments are quite distinct, as is our writing style, and most often cover different aspect of this issue from unique angles. No one else has confused our posts. The only similarity is you do not engage the content of either of our posts, you merely react with cartoonish and extremist misrepresentations of our nuanced and thought-out posts (“You seem to really hate the police!”, etc).

“You can ignore me, which would be the adult thing to do.”

You really are attracted to the idea of others being silent versus voicing their criticism.

“You decide that your in charge.”

Yes Putney, I am in charge of how I am to be addressed by you.

“You make these statements such as legal kidnapping and you get all hot under the collar if people object.”

All the heat comes from you. My reply was a clear description of the extreme power we entrust officers with and the seriousness of overseeing, through rules and regulations, that power.

“You used the Gates situation to make all these claims and assumptions about Crowley.”

You M.O. is clear. To make sweeping statements with no argument to back it up. You are all conclusions with no premises. I focused on the wording and possible misuse of the “disorderly conduct” ordinance in MA in any case, against anyone. I never referred to Crowley, except as an example of the general principle being discussed.

“I’m a pretty progressive person, but you come across as the worse kind of left winger, one that thinks the world revolves around them.”

I speak of concern for all Americans and their right to protected speech.

“Mike was being sarcastic could you not tell?”

Mike was hardly sarcastic. He asked you to please ask the officers you know about the blue wall of silence. Instead of addressing his nuanced point, you go off and characterize him in extreme terms (“You must hate all cops!” “Hope you never need to call a cop!”). I find Mike’s responses back to you to continue on with his content and ignore your bait. And if he intended a sliver of sarcasm by saying, “While you are at ‘another’ cook-out,” it was well deserved. Everyone’s job deserves to be overseen and evaluated, to argue that someone is “nice” during their off-hours at a social event contributes nothing.

“Expanded you’re real full of yourself.”

Anyone reading this will conclude that it is Putney Swope who is full of himself.

“I’m trying to be polite.”

Putney, you are trying too hard. Do not exert yourself there.

Unless you step-up your game and start addressing content, I’m done with you all heat, no light posts.

This is very very spooky. Rabbi’s are trading human organs for money. The source is Israel.

Please people…. would you really believe that an Israeli organ to be transplanted to a non-jewish body.

Not a chance. I am afraid that these are the organs of killed palestinian boys’ organs that are taken out of the mutilated bodies.

I will do more research and duly report here.

You want an apology, give me a break you really do fancy yourself. You fill the forum with these reams of BS to back up amounts to a false accusation on Sargent Crowley.

All the heat comes from you. My reply was a clear description of the extreme power we entrust officers with and the seriousness of overseeing, through rules and regulations, that power.

Sorry but you think your so smart. You think by throwing all these stats that I can’t see what your doing here.
Your not proving anything. By the way Crowley played it by the book for your information. Those descriptions are open to interpretation and you know it. Your trying to be a smart ass. You don’t like my language because it’s a bit crass and calling all your endless posting about nothing into question. Bottom line is you assumed Crowley was a bad cop, now before you say you didn’t you should realize that you go from using the indecent too using other cases which have no baring at all in light of this case.

If you took the time to do a little research on Sargent Crowley you would find that he is the opposite of the kind of cop your portraying him as.

Were mistakes made, yes. But Gates made the first one by refusing to identify himself. There was only one cop on that porch at that time answering a call to a passable break in. It would have been bad police work if he just said sure sir your fine, I’ll take your word for it.
He did not know who was behind the door inside the house.

Did he have too arrest Gates, no, but Gates should have identified himself right away and not played games. How was he to know why Crowley was there? He made a lot of assumptions and he was wrong, as you are about all of them.

Sorry both of you guys are saying cops are bad people.
Mike already said that 7 out of 10 were bad. That’s BS.

Mike sounded pretty sarcastic to me, and know he think most police are bad people it seemed that way to me.

As far as me liking my neighbors who happen to be cops why is that a problem? they do seem like nice guys, what’s the big deal? I’m glad that they live in my neighborhood, you know why, it keeps the it safe.
We also get our roads plowed right away…

I speak of concern for all Americans and their right to protected speech.

Except mine or anyone how disagrees with you.

Anyone reading this will conclude that it is Putney Swope who is full of himself.

No I have a sense of humor and can laugh at myself, something you don’t seem to have.

Your done with me, wow I’m so sad. So upset that your honor does not deem me worthy of further audience. Man you are so full of yourself really you are.

Now Lilya has a sense of humor but she doesn’t know it.
Your not serious about this are you?

“No I have a sense of humor and can laugh at myself.”

Well, at least you are not alone in laughing at you.

You keep saying the police are and they abuse the system.
Mike is more direct saying 7 out of 10 are bad cops.
What gets me if your in a bad situation, you’ll be the first to be calling and asking for the police to help.

I do agree there are some serious problems with the justice system in this country. I already said that there were some good cops and bad just like it is in “real life”.

You really are attracted to the idea of others being silent versus voicing their criticism.

I forgot to address this, no I’m not. You can criticize away until the cows come home for all I care. It’s called a forum. I can respond or I can just not take your bait.

Your version of free speech is only for people who agree with your ideology or so it seems.

I speak of concern for all Americans and their right to protected speech.

This statement really slays me, do you ware a cape when come up with this stuff?

If Michael Savage or Rush Limbaugh were here going of the rail as they do would you be concerned for their free speech?

Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr; “The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man in falsely shouting fire in a theater and causing a panic.”

Expanded you really think your so smart don’t you.
It is astonishing that you think your right about everything you post. Quite amazing the depth of your ego.

Let me guess your a lawyer.

sorry, you’re a lawyer.

“Let me guess your a lawyer.”

It is only the content of a person’s arguments and logical or fallacious nature of the arguments that matter. Not the person’s occupation. That only amounts to an ad hominem attack.

No, I’m not a lawyer.

I study at Harvard University – and not at the law school.

Look at the male egos herein go at it, Cambridge-porch style. It takes a mile of screen-reading to see if anything is added to the discussion of the week in the news, and anybody looking to see if a meaningful discussion is being held at OnPoint would conclude no, so interesting posts from various points of view would be not be as forthcoming. I guess they don’t teach that right off the bat at Harvard: How to get other people to put forth their best. Other people.

Some of you might consider getting out of your trenches and reading this current New York Times article on the Gates/Crowley incident. I think it’s quite balanced and contains some new information.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/07/27/us/27gates.html

Putney
Will I ever lie to you. This is from British Medicine Journal. These people in Israel will do anything for money. What do you think is happening to the bodies of thousands over 10000 Palestinian’s who are in Israeli jails, when they die? Daaaaa!

++++++++++++++++
“Sale of organs” to be investigated
Judy Siegel-Itzkovich Jerusalem

A committee of experts has been appointed by Israel’s health ministry to investigate claims by a Hebrew newspaper of illegal “sales of organs” and other alleged wrongdoings at Tel Aviv’s L Greenberg Institute of Forensic Medicine, the country’s sole institution for the performance of postmortem examinations in cases of unnatural death.

The ministry’s director general, Dr Boaz Lev, named a retired district court judge to head the four member panel, along with others from the ministry, a Beersheba hospital, and the Hebrew University’s institute of applied chemistry.

In a weekend magazine cover story in the Yediot Aharonot Daily, reporters Ronen Bergman and Gai Gavra claimed that the institute—headed for the past 13 years by chief pathologist Professor Yehuda Hiss—had been involved in “organ sales” of body parts. Providing much ghoulish evidence, including “price listings” for leg and thigh bones and other body . .

Expanded I was trying to see if you had a law background.
It seemed from a lot of your comments that you were somehow involved in this area.

You made a lot comments about free speech and how it relates to police work. Free speech is not completely free.

We can’t falsely yell “fire” in a crowded movie theater.
The police have the power to arrest people when they feel that the situation is warranted within the confines of the law. Do they make mistakes. They sure do.

I have had several very intense run in’s with the police in my life and I have to say they were extremely negative. I don’t tar every cop with the same brush due to these incidents. One in particular resulted in my arrest as a minor(16) by two undercover detectives who had clearly over stepped their legal boundaries. They were extremely abusive and had made assumptions based on me and my friend having long hair. Talk about profiling. In the end the charges were dropped as it was a bogus arrest.

That said when dealing with the police in regards to a situation like Professor Gates one can’t help but think it all could have been avoided if he just followed the protocol that the officer. Crowley was alone and he did not know who Gates was and Gates would not identify himself at first. I’m trying to view this through the cops lens. Something that few seem to be willing too do.

Of course the police have a wide discretion in regards to the disorderly conduct stature and is open for interpretation. The charges were dropped alluding too Crowley’s over reaching in this case. Crowley’s record in this area is good. He’s not an abusive cop.

As for the blue wall, well like I said the police is like the military. Is this a good thing, no but they think it’s necessary to keep trust in the ranks.
You can’t go out into potentially dangerous situations with someone you can’t trust.

Just today about 1230 on WTKK, a conservitie station, on jim and m. the lawyer for the women who called the police stated the women did not talk to officer crowley when he got there, but in the report crowley submited said she did so either he falsified some of the report or she is lieing and her lawyer is a lier as well.

which in a crimal case would and could be thrown because of this.

of the color of the mens skin

Mike she claimed not have mentioned anything about color.
Anyway the charges were dropped so the he said she said thing is moot now. Unless there is a civil case.

I still stand by my original thought on this, Gates made a mistake, and so did Crowley. Is it about race? To Gates it is, and I urge you to listen too Glen Lowery on last week Radio Boston show on the subject.

[...] Point, distributed nationally by National Public Radio to more than 150 stations. Looking back at the week in review on Friday, host Tom Ashbrook brought up the case of Pvt. Bowe Bergdahl, captured by the Taliban in Afghanistan [...]

point being that the officer(Crowely) statement had false information in it. Yet the police unions still stood by it, and crowely himself.

Just getting out of the nat guards that, even in the military people should have the morals to report violations since when the events come out it makes the troops (in this case the police) less safe and fuels distrust and injustices.

I dont buy the wall of blue for the benefit for all just plain false.

“potentially dangerous situations ” how do you expect civilians and minoritiies to have trust in the police if you are aware if your rights are violated by the police other police will not stand you for you(the people there serve)in sake of unity.

denying civilains rights to save face in the police force is not a good excuse and sooner or later come to light and look even worst.

“how do you expect civilians and minorities to have trust in the police if you are aware of your rights are being violated by the police and other police will not stand up for you”

http://www.wbur.org/2009/07/30/gates-arrest-slur-2

Boston Police To Address Officer’s Racial Slurs

An Undercover Cop, Brutally Beaten, Revealed Racial Divide In Boston

http://www.wbur.org/2009/07/30/the-fence