Economic hard times generally turns up the volume on hate speech: gotta blame someone for our problems.

At the same time that civility is breaking down our ability to capture everything and put it online or broadcast it within minutes of it happening is getting easier.

The social internet (gossip blogs, twitter, facebook and others) reward juicy tidbits by boosting the popularity of those who post them and the civility of TV and radio (PBS and NPR aside) has gone from bad to worse.

People and groups who used to be marginal can now find each other via the social internet, form bigger, louder groups and attempt to talk with a single voice.

The upside is that watching and listening to some of these voices, like folks at the recent DC tea party undermines their credibility for most of us who know better.

both where tards, and will both be rewarded for it, Kayne in record sales, and Joe in campaign money. In a world where sensationalism rules this will mostly likely get worst because it pays to do so.

I want to comment on Rep. Wilson. I think this is blown way out of proportion. Have you ever seen British Parliament? That’s worked for a few hundred years. When the Founding Fathers were trying to iron out what our country would look like, do you think they were so “civil”? When President Bush (43) spoke to Congress, I’ve heard loud raucous “boos”. Wilson was caught up in the moment. It’s a heated debate. Let is be heated. So what?

“Have you ever seen British Parliament?”

I don’t know about this comparison. A British Prime Minister comes to Parliament to face actual questioning. He has to think and react quickly on his/her feet and gets cheered or booed depending on the answer. There is an actual exchange going on. Here, the tradition has long been: Congress hears the speech. It has always been a scripted marketing event. I would like to see Bush and Obama perform under the conditions of British Paliament. As it is, Congress has certain rules and they should enforce them.

Wilson called Strom Thurmond’s black daughter a hoax and favored flying the Confederate flag over the SC capitol. Pretty tough to deny racism when he then calls the first black president a liar during a joint session of Congress. To paraphrase the late Jody Powell, being called a liar by Joe Wilson is like being called ugly by a frog.

There is huge difference between a boo and yelling out to the president, “you lie”. As for your points about the British parliamentary system, well we don’t have a parliamentary system. What Wilson did was disrespectful to the office of the President on one level and it was also racially loaded as well. One needs to look into the political history of South Carolina to find the seeds of this kind of behavior. He has been officially rebuked by the house, the first time in modern history that this has been done to my knowledge.

When President Bush (43) spoke to Congress, I’ve heard loud raucous “boos”

Yes, and the boos were a response to Bush’s ideas, not a personal attack on his character. I don’t have a problem with grumblings over what a president says in a joint session, but what Wilson did was to attack the president’s character, which was beyond the pale in such circumstances. And don’t kid yourself that it’s not about race.

I’d say that civility is lessening in part due to online anonymity, letting people act like a complete jerks when they would never do so in person.

Anonymity allows people to be extreme. It has led to an increasing “tabloid-ization” of our culture. This contributes to extreme views, extreme reactions, and hence extreme posturing on the part of politicians, celebrities and others.

Oh, and Kanye is a gay fish. =P

We’ve lost the ability to disagree with each other without demonizing the individual. This limits our chances of reaching compromise and renders every argument a “fight to the death.” If we started from the point of view that the “loyal opposition” has motives at least as lofty as our own, we might be able to discuss rather than rant. But in today’s contentious world of talk radio and “no spin zones,” I don’t fancy our chances.

I think Kanye was disrupted because he does not like white people.

“We’ve lost the ability to disagree with each other without demonizing the individual.”

I have been reading biographies of Alexander Hamilton and John Adams and I see that this is very much within the tradition of this population. People here are very easily scared and whipped into frenzy. “The French are coming!”, “The British are coming!”, “The Yankees are coming!”, “Ze Germans are coming!”, “The Reds are coming!”, “Our own Government is coming!”, “Healthcare is coming!” The debate from the right goes like this: “I shudder at the thought that a government beaurocrat will decide XYZ.” People are paranoid.

I agree with the previous comment that online/anonymous criticism leads to less accountability in content. People feel free to go negative quickly. In every lengthy online thread I’ve read, nasty, snarky comments usually begin by the tenth line.

But that’s only part of the picture. I’m tempted to say that it might be a generational shift. I was raised to consider politeness to others a top priority in all things, even above getting what I want out of a situation. I’m not sure if that is as reinforced in youth education as it once was. But then Joe Wilson, clearly no spring chicken, goes and disproves my idea.

Bottom line, I believe incivility has been incentive-ised. Wilson’s comment brought him from nowhere into the media leadership of his party. Kanye West? I’d never heard of him until this weekend, and now he’s achieved a mountain of free publicity. The potential rewards will keep people running off at the mouth for a long time to come.

Can’t we all just get along?

Incivility & Post-Reconstructionism

The rising frequency of incivility, particulaly that directed at president Obama (birthers, townhall outbursts and congressman Joe wilson’s outburst) seem to be reminicent of the post-reconstruction period of US history.
Following the civil war Blacks were elected to statewide offices in former Confederate states. In post-reconstruction 1877 following the withdrawal of Union forces from the South there was a reaction in the South against the Reconstruction reform, including vilification and removal of Black elected officials, institution of “Jim Crow” provisions and formation and rise of the KKK. I hope that this is not where we are heading!

For many people, Barack Obama is the last chance for Washington to show that they can serve the people, not just powerful corporate interests. If government by crisis continues to commit our current and future tax dollars to military contractors, Wall Street, and, now, health insurers, citizens will become increasingly unhappy and motivated to protest. Pundits, pollsters, and politicians can dismiss this anger as uncivil, extremist, or (the new favorite) racist, but they are just pouring gasoline on a rapidly growing fire.

The recent displays of public uncivility cited for this discussion has nothing to with racism and everything to do with a lack of class and/or sportsmanship.

We all would benefit from reading George Washington’s ” Rules of Civility & Decent Behavior, in Company and Conversation. ” A good example which applies to the current debate is Rule 105 : ” Be not angry at table whatever happens, and if you have reason to be so, show it not; put on a cheerful countenance especially if there be strangers, for good humor makes one dish of meat feast. “

Hi Tom,

I am a US citizen living in Europe. This gives me the opportunity to look at everything from the outside, away from the chatter..

I think the base of the discussion is mis-targeted here…The lack of civility in discussing, commenting, especially on politics, is clearly a DIRECT result of right-wing radio commentors, Fox News, and in general the recent tactics of devisive (us Vs them) politics proposed by the Republican Party for the past 10 years…

It’s a shame that Americans don’t see clearly that anyone who wants to divide the country is not working in their interest.

This appears to be a decline in our society. You would not treat others that way if you have self respect. When you respect yourself….you have respect for others. Each item discussed could very well also have racial undertones.

Camille Paglia is an idiot. This lack of civility is a direct result of fear and inherent racism of the protesters. I went to a tea bag protest and they are the same folks who were “Patriots” during the Clinton years. Fox and the far right are fueling the fear to get more heat. Go to one of these and see how dangerous your neighbors are.

I have always disliked Camille Paglia before today’s program. She is a complete idiot. Her points are absurd, completely absurd. She should take off those rose colored glasses.

She keeps saying people are speculating, well what the hell is she doing.

Camille was not a good choice for this program. She is difficult to listen to, because her choice is to be inflammatory whenever possible.

There are plenty of racist crazies contributing to the current problem in our country. Jimmy Carter is correct and Camille is wrong.

I totally agree that the trend of declining civility goes far beyond politics and is part of a much larger cultural trend. Here are some observations regarding sports. I am an extremely competitive person who has competed in various forms of athletics for most of my life (e.g. as an adult I have actually taken up competing in Ironman triathlons if that gives you a clue!!!). While I have “argued very lightly” with officials in the past, I am shocked by the continuing decline in the conduct of coaches, parents, and athletes in general. This conduct includes, but is not limited to frequent use of four letter words, etc.. In the words of former NY Senator Daniel Patrick Moynihan, this is all part of our nation’s trend in “Defining Deviancy Down”

Regarding civility in politics, both parties need to turn down the harsh rhetoric. While Rep. Joe Wilson’s (R SC) “You lie” outburst during the President’s speech lacked civility and was absolutely not appropriate, Democrats are kidding themselves with commentary that this lack of civility is somehow limited to the Republican Party. Check out some of the Democratic reactions during and after President Bush’s various addresses to Congress over the preceding 8 years. Not exactly profiles in civility!!

On a related note, Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid referred to Barbara Bush (the former President’s mother using a word I cannot use on this post (e.g. starts with a “B” to refer to a female) in his book. The Bush family and I are both still waiting for Senator Harry Reid’s apology. Wilson’s outburst was at least an emotional loss of control (e.g. not an excuse), but Harry Reid’s comment actually made if through Reid’s and his editor’s various reviews. Which is less civil? I am not sure!!!!

I will always refer to President Obama as the either “the President or President Obama” regardless of whether I disagree with his policies, which is far more respectful than the manner in which many Democrats I know referred to President Bush……..

Here we go. They sound like they are going to start grabbing each other’s throats on the show. Especially, this woman who keeps screeming there.

I don’t think President Carter should apologize for what he feels is correct in his view!

Please, do we have to listen to Camille Paglia ever again? Her relentless petulance is more than annoying.

Dear god, please do not ever have Camille Paglia on this show again. Makes me want to put an ice pick in my ears.
Any more outbursts from her and I will turn off the radio…

Camille has spent way too much time in the ivory tower.

My husband is a memeber of our neighborhood assoc. Every month when he goes to the meetings with the residents he gets cussed out, called a racist, a devil, etc etc simply because he signs the letters sent out that tell residents to keep their properties in the order that they signed onto when they moved to the neighborhood. This is just the way things are now! Go to a highschool football game and listen to the parents yell at the coaches and refs!

Camille is really out of touch.

2/3 of Republicans don’t believe Obama is a natural born citizen.

How can you say this is a “fringe” view?

Wow Tom,
These guests today seem incapable of coming to terms with the fact that these behaviors should not be accepted. Blaming the media? So, it’s the media’s fault that people are vulgar, racist, rude? Camille is rude herself, no wonder she accepts the behavior. How dare any white woman speak out and say race is not a part of this. I do not understand why rudeness was accepted then or now. Who parented these folks? Camille, you missed out on manners.

I forgot to say her performance on today’s show has now cemented my view point of my dislike of her. She’s so wrong. What about how the fringe is now part of the main stream, as in Glenn Beck.

I just wanted to say whoever this woman is who is getting completely bent out of shape over the FACT that there is racism inherent in the fabric of our country and our political system is completely out of line and I hope she isn’t invited back. She is ignoring the lived reality of a growing MAJORITY of people in this country. I think it’s really UNCIVIL of her to shout down callers with whom she doesn’t agree. This is especially ironic considering the theme of this show is “Questions of Civility, and more.”

It is strange and rather dangerous to be talking in the same breath about vulgarity and racism. Vulgarity means demeaning yourself and withdrawing yourself from cultural norms; racism is an effort to impose your evil opinions on the culture. Putting them together suggests that being racist is just rude. It’s way worse then that.

But by the same count it is wrong to confuse opposition to Obama with racism. I was convinced that Bush was incompetent, wrong, lying, evil, manipulative, and trying to warp the country to suit his compatriots. Pretty much the same thing as many people now believe about Obama. I could believe all of those things without being racist; so can a right winger today. There are plenty of appallingly racist individuals opposed to Obama, but he has plenty of (wrong) opponents who aren’t racist.

People who feel powerless in the face of our government powers that be resort to violence, physical, verbal or otherwise to lash out. We do not teach our citizens how to reject violence in favor of non violent action which in itself is mis-understood. Until we educate our citizens on how to effect change in a civil society we will struggle on all fronts.

Today is the first time I have ever had to tune to a different station during your show–first to escape the abusive arrogant bullying of Martin Peretz,(contrasted dramatically by the polite civil discourse of Jonathan Ben Ami), and just now by the insufferable hectoring of Camille Paglia.To contend that liberal attacks on Bush were the equivalent of the wing-nuts who shouted and made rational discussion impossible at town halls and the truly frightening signage at the Washington demonstration is patently ridiculous. When I read that one of the “tea-baggers” in Arizona attends a church whose pastor gave a sermon urging Obama be killed I fear for my country!

One huge difference between the hatred spewed at Obama vs. that spewed at Bush is that these dissenters are much more likely to believe in their right to bring firearms to their protests. Sane citizens of any political persuasion are rightly alarmed.

I live in Tennessee, and if you don’t believe that widespread subtle racism isn’t a part of this, you’re living in a fantasy world.

I realize I’m being a bit uncivil, but it is simply THE TRUTH.

Infer what you like.

I, too, am finding it tiring of the increasing number of claims made by supporters of Obama that it’s “racist” to disagree with him. It’s as ludicrous as saying that all blacks that disagreed with George Bush were racist.

If this is the route we’re going to take…then allcriticism of white leaders in the future by blacks MUST be considered as “racist” at its base.

I don’t want to believe that this is all about racism. I do believe, however, that the issue we are dealing with is extreme partisanship. In this case the republicans and those that lean that way don’t want to see health care reform succeed because they don’t want to see the Democrats succeed. I think we are in serious trouble because both sides are refusing to put their partisanship aside to come together for the good of the people and the country

I appreciate the concept Camile Paglia asserts, that there are fringe elements being represented by a lot of the outlandish comments about President Obama. However, I do think that the media coverage of these fringe elements does validate it as a perspective, which helps to break down the inhibitions that others might feel about making these kind of outlandish comments in a public forum. Given that, I think that labeling these folks as “fringe” doesn’t fully reflect the current numbers and that they’re likely to grow over time.

I praise President Carter for his brave and right on analysis of what the underlying sentiment is to the opposition to President Obama…plain old racism. Camila is correct to note the left wingers of the Democratic Party were and are uncivil with some of their commentary and demonstrations BUT she does not point out how some of the demented righties are going to demonstrations armed?!?
It is only a matter of time before serious violence breaks out! How very sad America’s ugly side is so clearly showing now?

This is just one part of a general short-sightedness and money worship in the US today.

If you have enough money or celebrity, you can find enough people to support or pay or buy your stuff to make your bad behavior rewarding.

We are in an economic crisis because Americans tried to get something for nothing. They went for short term gains.

We hate our government because our representatives and parties are looking to score points today.

Athletes behaving badly, celebrities behaving badly, politicians behaving badly, our neighbors behaving badly (look in the comments section of any newspaper or news site – it hardly takes 4 postings before someone posts something off the wall and offensive).

Our society seems to affirm that any attention is good attention.

… and the media eats it up! What is the behavior version of “If it bleeds, it leads?”

No one is properly caring for our children…watching, teaching hour by hour, day by day, admonishing, and leading by example. This lack of civility did not begin this week. Behavior such as this results from a lifetime of allowing daily, small confrontations to persist without proper discipline. Parents are subscribing to the “pay later, rather than pay now” philosophy.

Perhaps it is just the fringe right wing who are truculent and scream out the racist rants, but it is the mainstream Republican’s indifference to such egregious acts that speak the loudest.

Brian said “2/3 of Republicans don’t believe Obama is a natural born citizen.

How can you say this is a “fringe” view?”

Brian, please provide support for this statistic. Of course, President Obama is a natural born citizen and anyone who disagrees needs to learn that Hawaii is a state.

I will criticize the President’s policies, where I deem appropriate… and I am not arrogant enough to presume that I will always be correct. I would hope that I can criticize the President’s policies without being called a racist!!! President Carter’s commentary is absurd in my opinion.

In an alternative timeline where McCain / Palin hold the highest office in the land, do you think there would be claims of sexism if Americans protested the continued Iraq war?

What if Democrats had pulled their children from school during President McCain’s speech? Would there be claims that they are unpatriotic?

Tension is high. I think all representatives need to get together and just have a giant water balloon fight. Maybe then we can get back to respect and civility.

Race has never been an mistaken by product of american life. Today it has been institutionalized by the 911 World Trade events. Police & other law enforcement even refuse to ID race in traffic stops, yet they expect our respect as does the law?

The bad behavior in American has always been the SOP of the wealthy, elite & middle classe and they won’t have it any other way! If American’s with true class, respect for our constitution & for human life want to preserve our union I fear a Tea party revolution is required. Is this not historically true?

I think this conversation is very interesting and I think part of it can be explained by the “age” of this nation. I took a “western civilization course” for two years and college- we talked about the US for about 3 months. The nation is young and we are hitting Puberty and inevitably are acting like teens lashing out at our parents and not grasping the full concept of manners! All this is amplified by the fact that we are over connected with the internet and social networks, and like one of the guests commented we find groups that share the same ideas as us and follow them, we are no longer forced to be part of a grab bag group of friends with differing opinions.

I heard a spokesperson for the Anti-Tax Tea Party movement interviewed on CNN yesterday, acknowledging that some participants in their protesters were “bigotted” and that they are a fringe element of the group, dismissing this is part of America.

Speaking of civility, why don’t we hold organizations accountable for the actions of their members? How can they disassociate themselves from the participants in their events? If their group is not tolerant of racism or of disrepectful behavior as an operating principle of their organization, then it speaks about their groups’ values — without question.

Let’s call it what it is.

So funny to hear folks parse their language. Call a spade a spade. Black folks need to step back and let white folks challenge one another on the issue of race. It’s a problem THEY have and THEY need to deal with. We must stop placing ourselves between them and the harsh reality of their insecurities about race. It’s not our job. This is why I appreciate President Carter’s remarks, because they were from the heart and from a white southerner who knows how this plays globally. It is not Black folks responsibility to heal some white people of racist inclinations. White people handle your business.

If you go by the dictionary definition of civility: “speech or behavior that is a sign of good breeding ” — then I think it is becoming a thing of the past outside of the South (where generally people still are courteous in day to day interactions). Coarseness has become “cool” it seems. Perhaps due to the “all about me” attitude we seem to see so much.

Call the President a liar and quickly thereafter raise $2 million for your campaign. It’s easy to see that, unfortunately, being uncivil pays.

While I may share many of Camille Paglia’s political points of view, I find the idea of Ms. Paglia commenting on the coarseness of discourse very ironic. It’s like having Sarah Palin comment on the demise of grammar and articulate expression in the political arena.

There may be an element of racism, but the majority of people not just the”fringe” are unable to hold a rational conversation longer than a “tweet”. Discussions quickly deteriorate into angry, irrational events where volume trumps reason. The listeners of Public radio are a self selected group, but in my daily life I am surrounded by people with amazing poverty of thought. If I am lucky they are also inarticulate. The internet and texting does provide these “Yahoos’ with a voice.

Yes it is the end of civility and may be an indictment of our poor education and our society as a whole.

I can’t take this Camila anymore. I’m turning off BUR.

Rob -

Here’s the poll:

http://www.pollster.com/blogs/disturbing_poll_on_beliefs_abo.php

Harold Ford, Jr. probably lost here in Tennessee because of a blatantly racist ad run by the Republican party. Remember, “Harold, call me”.

And what do you think Saxby Chambliss meant when he said “Obama better show some humility in his speach”. Anyone whose ever lived in the South knows exactly what he meant. He didn’t have to use the word “uppity”.

you can’t prove racism anymore tha you can prove love. those who want to deny racism are using the argument that they are characterizing their opponents as using- they’re are over generakizing. No one is saying that all teabaggers are racist, but behavior (such as signs and phrases) would lead one to belive that there are racists present. Now, they have every right to demonstrate, but the non-racist teabaggers have the freedom to demonstrate against racist teabaggers.

When was the last time a sitting US President was called a liar, vociferously and loudly, by a member of the US Congress while the President was making a nationally televised speech? And why would the Congressman feel that he has the right to do such a thing; especially being a representative of the Republican party; a party that prides itself on having the utmost respect for the office of the Presidency? The only answer that comes to me is “racism”.

Brilliant Tom: “Does democracy work with this much id in the middle of it.”

Tom,
As a 59 year old “child of the sixties” the animus toward LBJ and Nnixon was angry and coarse as well. I rememmber protesters chanting “hey hey LBJ how many babies did you kill today?”
Also “tricky dick”, and worse epithets were regularly directed to the president prior to his resignation.
As americans when we are angry, LBJ-war, Niixon-deceit, Obama-economic turmoil.

I think I’ve had enough of Peggy Noonan, Jr. (Kathleen Parker). I’m not sure what her Morning in America nostalgia contributes to the discussion.

Wow! Camille Paglia is a revelation! No wonder she didn’t notice people shouting over other people in the town halls — that’s exactly what she does! I don’t know her age but perhaps she’s a “boomer”! Boomer takes on a whole new meaning now.

Hi Tom;

Statesmanship and civility has been destroyed. The right has gone absolutely bezeerk by screaming over people that disagree with them, and it has translated into a common way of discourse in our country. In a country with millions unemployed and desperate, people cling to emotion and fear mongering before actually looking at the facts. Glen Beck, Ann Coulter, etc. and Fox news perpetuate this by cloaking these emotional outburst in journalism.

Camille and Kathleen must mix with a vastly different population than I do. The protests etc. ABSOLUTELY have to do with race. Spend a week with me in white, middle class, anti-intellectual, affluent America and they will agree with me. Should fiscal conservatives mix with blatant racists? No. Like I do when someone uses a slur in my house, they should kick them out of the protest and the party. It doesn’t make you popular, but sets a good example for the kids.

Well, that’s all my hearing could handle. Madam Paglia has caused me to shut you off. I was wondering if you knew how much VPR needs it’s donations? If you don’t, consider this. Nice folks do not like rancid speech, nice folks put away check books!
I hope your show does not become like so many of the others.

Jesse and Al have been quiet on this issue, so that caller is reaching…

Maybe I need to apologize to Kathleen…I think it’s Camille Paglia who is driving me crazy…

Interesting that you ask us to be civil, when you have that vitriolic Camille Paglia going off on the radio.

I agree with President Carter, and support his careful statement of the reality of racism. However, Tom, I think that you set the stage for a wild program today with your top of the hour synopsis of the topic. You basically said that Pres Carter was characterizing all the protests against Obama as racist (sorry, I don’t remember your exact words), and that sets the stage for a reactive discussion rather than a thoughtful debate. Perhaps that was not your intent, but I think you should be more careful in the future. We cannot have a thoughtful discussion about the racism that is real and apparent in some of these protests (there are plenty of pieces of evidence to witness) without being very careful with our words at all times.

Also, to Camille…yes, you can find anything on the Web if you look for it. You could also find all these signs of racism around the country before the Web was around–however, it was a lot harder to compile them all. The Web simply makes it easier for the fringe to be louder, but that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t call out racisim whenever we witness it.

As someone who recently moved from NJ to Kentucky (2004), I believe there is an element of racism injected into the current political debates. Before the election, I heard repeatedly that if Obama was elected “someone would shoot him.” Also, He (Obama) is the “antichrist”, He is a “Muslim”–these comments were not from “fringe” elements–but every day people that I ran into at school, the country club and elsewhere in town. I could not believe it. That said, what we are seeing also is a result of 24/7 news media and the internet. The internet affords anonymity and the ability to be able to say what ever you want to without having to justify or be responsible for your remarks. It is completely uncensored. A powerful tool, uncensored, has created the kind of atmosphere that breeds hateful, shameful behavior.

Tom please, I beg you tell Camilie to SHUT UP!

At least part of the underlying cause of our lack of civility surely seems to be an epidemic of retarded emotional development.
Bob Herbert, some months ago, in one of his op-eds, said that the USA is a profoundly immature society. he was more concise.

A significant consequence of emotional immaturity is that one’s self-restraint is weak. An emotionally mature person tends to stay cool in adversity.

=====

Let’s also realize that the Rwandan genocide (about 8,000 people killed daily) was started by wildly ranting radio commentators. In current US radio, I’ve wondered whether some extremists are inciting to assassination.

My mother used to say that if Jesus returned, we’d stone him to death.

I reject the defense your guest had this morning for Serena Williams outburst during the U.S. Open. I grow tired of people who are so proud of their public heroes that the fail to acknowledge when their behavior is out of line.

John McEnroe, by my recollection argued calls and was known for his verbal antics on the court. In fact, his tyrades, which sometimes seemed strategically staged to get his opponent off their game, created the need for some USTA rules regulating on court player behavior today. However, I cannot recall one instance in which anyone on the court felt threatened with physical harm in the way that the line judge at this year’s U.S. Open did. In this case, the call was not even in dispute. Shear, personal ugliness toward another individual was the only thing evident in the exchange which included threats of direct, physical violence. I’m embarrassed to have Ms. Williams represent our country.

Why is Camille screaming?

Rudeness, racism, verbal attacks that are personal and intended to be hurtful are not illegal however much they may be regrettable. For a time “political correctness” codes, informal and in some cases, formal, attempted to eliminate their use in public discourse.

What we are seeing is ugly, unpleasant and angry but it is a refreshing response to a well-intended but inappropriate attempt to rule out views the majority did not want to admit were present in our culture. Airing them is a far healthier way to deal with them than trying to suppress them by any means.

A new era of honesty? God help us all!

Hey Tom, Get it right. Jimmy Carter said the MAJORITY were racists not SOME as you said he said. There is as BIG difference. Saying you lie is not racist. And exercising our RIGHT to peacefully protest against our government is not racist. End of story. Anyone who resorts to name calling or labeling people as racists do so because they do not have a legitimate counter argument.

Camille is lukewarm…she stands for nothing and everything. The consummate apologist. “strategic failures of health care reform” huh. So we call him and his family gorillas. How on earth did this guy make through the most scrutinized primary season of the modern era and nobody find out that he was an illegal immigrant? Camille you’re an idiot.

Joe Wilson was rude. But it was _only_ rudeness. It certainly wasn’t racism. Most of the Republican senators have said much the same in circumlocutions. Frankly, I’d rather they came out and say he lied, so they couldn’t run away from their statements when called on them. The ONLY problem with Wilson’s outburst was the setting—a formal presentation to congress. It’s wrong to equate this with the much more dangerous assertions of the birther movement and other racists.

maybe the “Questions of Civility” should be asked to your guess Camille Paglia.

wow unlike the other 2 guess she were very aggressive, rude, and nasty and to give credit to the birther moment says it all.

Camille is doing the same thing that the spokesperson for the tea parties did yesterday. The “movement” should not be able to disassociate itself from the actions of the people it is organizing. Why don’t we hold ORGANIZATIONS accountable for their behavior? It is they who are organizing the individuals. If they allow racists to participate in their events, then they are making a comment about their values. Here is what I posted earlier:
———————————–

I heard a spokesperson for the Anti-Tax Tea Party movement interviewed on CNN yesterday, acknowledging that some participants in their protesters were “bigotted” and that they are a fringe element of the group, dismissing this is part of America.

Speaking of civility, why don’t we hold organizations accountable for the actions of their members? How can they disassociate themselves from the participants in their events? If their group is not tolerant of racism or of disrepectful behavior as an operating principle of their organization, then it speaks about their groups’ values — without question.

Let’s call it what it is.

Oh please, this is not constructive dialogue with Camille Paglia on the show. Birthers have a point? Come on. At the risk of incivility, I must say that I find her non-stop, threadbare logic and predictably contrarian blather about as dazzling as listening to stream of consciousness from a bipolar disorder patient. It’s also a prime example of the problem on the media side. The 24-hour news cycle is jammed with talking heads willing to express any provocative view in the name of self-promotion.

Tom…I listen to your show everyday for a reason…not anymore…Camille Pagila has injected a FOX (so called) News vitriol and hyperbole that defeats its purpose: civil, intellectually grounded debate and discussion…

It is obvious that Kathleen is a southern conservative but WHAT PLANET IS CAMILLE FROM?!?!? She has really put a lot of effort into derailling any intelligent discussion on this subject.

It’s a shame I had to change the station because Camille Paglia’s manner was like fingernails on a chalkboard.

She’s distracting, and I’m not sure what exactly she’s bringing to the discussion.

I cannot put my emotions into words, for one hour I have been hearing denial after denial about some disturbing social trends that are affecting our current civic culture. How many Presidents have been called a liar to his face on the Congress floor? Find out about the organizations to which Joe Wilson belong, and you will find reasons to think that the man was racially motivated. Moreover, how many elected Presidents birth circumstances have been questioned as furiously as the circumstances regarding the birth of the present one. For once, I am simply disappointed with the level of discussion that has characterized today’s show.

Please ask Camille Paglia what strategic paths by Obama would stop these fleckspittles on the right.

She is embarrassing herself (nothing new) and NPR. When our host is pushed to immediately correcting her, that says something as to how loosely her opinions connect to reality.

The only people overreacting to the paltry demonstration in DC are the mainstream press who have a fascination with how “real” these people are, and couldn’t be bothered with lefty rallies which were exponentially larger.

And whenever I read a story about these angry, “authentic” folks, it never cites reliable polling on the President’s popularity, the public option, or support for the Republicans’ ideas in opposition.

Camille Paglia made me turn off the show.

I was thinking that she was one step from frothing at the mouth, but when she said the “birthers” had a point, I realized that it was probably better that this was radio – I have a low tolerance for frothing… and fluff.

I happened to be in the airport in Philadelphia yesterday afternoon when Obama flew in on Air Force One. I was very struck by the response from almost everyone in the terminal – employees, travelers, young, old, seemingly liberal, seemingly conservative, black, white, Hispanic, etc. Everyone was excited to just see his plane. Virtually everyone who heard he was arriving crowded around windows to take pictures. So, I have to ask … is all the “I hate him”/”I love him” just noise from a very vocal and determined minority. From what I saw, President Obama seemed to be popular with everyone in the Philadelphia airport yesterday afternoon.

Puh-leeze! According to Blackistone, now we’re supposed to view the public’s outraged reaction to Serena’s repeated curses and threats directed at a diminutive lineswoman as proof of societal sexism as well as racism?!

I hope the fact that Obama called Kanye a ‘jackass’ for his incredibly rude behavior at the VMA awards show has put an end to claims that criticism of West are racist.

Joe Wilson is obviously an isiot. Does it really matter if he’s also a racist? Would it be any less offensive if a idiotic white congressperson had shouted out “You lie!” at the prez?

Actually, I think that it was fascinating to have Camille on the show. Juxtaposing her with what I heard from the spokesperson of the Tea Parties yesterday on CNN (per my earlier posts), I realized the error in their logic that ties to the point of this show.

Why do we let organizations off the hook when their members are behaving badly?

If you host a rally and people come carrying racist signs and you allow them to participate, without condemning them or disassociating yourself from them, then you are condoning them.

Let’s add this into the new “etiquette” rules and hold organizations, candidates, etc accountable if they don’t take responsibility for the actions of their members.

The U.S. Government has a huge pot of money in its possession and the ability to borrow even more. I would submit to you that gaining access to this huge resource is more lucrative than control of the entire Middle Eastern Oil reserve. The way to get access to this pot is through electing your won candidate and defeat the other guy’s. The money gets distributed by means of contracts, subsidies, Medicare payments to Big Pharma and Insurance, etc., etc. The way to elect your own candidate and defeat the other guy’s in a 50/50 population is to whip people into frenzy, scare and devide them. As is often the case (almost always, actually) the money and fear are driving the process. Conclusion: it is difficult for me to agree that there is an “honest” debate here.

Camille Paglia is absolutely the last type of person any NPR show should ever have on as a guest. Like many of the other comments from listeners, I had to turn off the radio because of her shrill, nonsensical tirades that have no connection to reality. I listen to NPR for a reason: I want real debates that are grounded in reality and facts–not Cable TV-ish shouting matches that make up the rules as they go along. Please, for the love of God, do not have her on this show ever again.

By reading these comments on today’s show it is clear that Camille Paglia is getting the “no” vote. I think On Point should take heed of the reaction to her. Please, I beg you not to ask her back. She offers up nothing and she completely hijacked what could have been a very good show.

What she did show me was how rude and overbearing her act is. I feel sorry for her students.

I find it highly ironic that a show dealing with civility in public discourse was full of anger, interruption, and raised voices on the part of the shows’ guests (one in particular, but I won’t name names). While racism is a highly contentious issue and the guests had strongly differing opinions on the topic, there is no excuse for such disrespectful behavior. It was unpleasant to sit through and, ultimately, discredited all the arguments made by the person in question (in my opinion).

Mr Ashbrook, I think if a guest gets too worked up you have the right as the host to politely hint that they are being too unruly and encourage them to be respectful. I’m sure many of your guests would be happy to oblige (and your listeners would be saved from such uncomfortable outbursts).

Refreshing to hear an honest assessment on ON POINT today of the Town Hall-Tea Party behaviors. I marched in the 9-12 Rally in DC this weekend. It was peaceful and the vast majority of signs I saw were complaints about Congressional AND Obama policy — not race.

There is a Monty Python sketch where Graham Chapman is interviewed. “Let me answer that question two ways”, he says, “first in my own voice, then in a kind of silly, high-pitched whine.”
Today’s show reminds me of that sketch. In fact any show with Camille Paglia reminds me of that sketch.
She is completely unable to observe facts and come to a conclusion, and she disguises this by shouting down people, jumping from one wild claim or personal attack to the next, and then accusing everyone on earth except herself of jumping to conclusions.
Whoever produced today’s show should have to listen to it a half dozen times.

I tried to get in today to challenge several of the points Camille Paglia was propogating. First, she dismissed the concerns about racism as rhetorical flourish. But, Prof. Paglia has built a career as a best selling author precisely because she understands and utilizes rhetorical flourish. She kept dismissing out of hand the notion that we are a racist nation. No one was arguing this point that she was rejecting but it worked rhetorically for her to not significantly engage the question of race. She has obviously not listened to talk radio (Rush Limbaugh and “Barack the Magic Negro”) or watched Fox News’ Glenn Beck (Health Care reform is reparations, the President has a deep-seated hatred of white people). She also perpetuated the myth of a “liberal media” that conservatives have used to drive the debate and cower any critical analysis. Eric Alterman’s well researched work in “What Liberal Media?” is worth looking at. To make the claim as she did on your show that the overuse of crying sexism, homophobia, and racism necessarily leads to a posture of getting “beyond” these arguments is intellectually dishonest and dangerously naive.

The rage of the right to the “sudden” overthrow of our government is ludicrous in light of what we have endured since 2000. Where was all their rightful indignation at the loss of their civil rights when the USA PATRIOT Act was pushed through one night in 2001? This incivility was in part birthed on the Senate floor when Dick Cheney told Sen. Patrick Leahy to “go F*ck yourself.” When dialog and true discourse can no longer be generated because it requires logic, rationality, intelligence and truth, scoundrels will always resort to name calling, lies and violence to express their gut feelings. Unfortunately in a democratic republic, such as it is, we the people require discourse to proceed through the machinations of the process of governance, or we will suffer the rule of fiat. I fear we have come to that moment of choice. Take this country backwards through fiat or rationally engage in discourse into the future.

To add to my earlier comment, I feel and can see in some of the anti-Obama protestor’s eyes a fear, dare I say a terror, that does not seem to be based in reality. And it has recently become apparent to me that it could only be racism that causes such a fear;a fear that Obama is either trying to pull a fast one or that he is just not capable of running the country.

I have a strong feeling that Joe Wilson spoke out on purpose during President Obama’s speech. In fact, I think he planned it. He is in an upcoming election, and his Democratic rival was ahead of him, money wise, prior to his comment. His town meeting behavior filled his coffers.

Carter’s right. That said, did West’s outburst have to do with race? I say yes, probably. What to do about racists? Ignore them, exclude them, shun them.

Good topic but would have had a more intelligent conversation at Moe’s Tavern. Paglia is all about controversy and attention, come to think of it just like her fellow birthers.

Wish I could have my hour back. Tow you owe us.

I do worry, somewhat, that we are headed for more-serious trouble.

It won’t be surprising when at least one person dies as a direct consequence of the current unrest. It could be that someone gets shot at a town-hall meeting

It no longer seems inconceivable that the USA could become fascist. At least, a President Palin would probably resign after being in office for a few weeks or so.

Let’s hope that we don’t have civil war amongst our population; geographical separation would matter less than it did in the mid-1800s.

The USA has been too good a nation to discard as trash, but should it happen (odd thought), such discarding will affect the rest of the world, as our financial crisis-trigger did.

=====

As I understand it, Japan’s topography being largely mountainous, their population density is quite high in most places. Traditionally, they have been notably polite, so that life that’s so close to so many others remains harmonious.

It seems that their civility is not necessarily sincere, as we regard it, but it nevertheless does matter, a lot. The very fact that any typical Japanese person follows customary courtesy shows that they do have great regard for civility, bred partly out of real need.

In the USA, we have bit of insincere dialog to smooth the way — witness OnPoint callers who start with “How are you?”, which only wasts seconds, and is quite unlikely to be sincere. Nevertheless, it’s a brief example of what seems to be much more prevalent in Japanese society.

If people do not think Wilson’s antics were not partly or I would argue fully race based should read up on this man.

I’m not a big fan of Maureen Dowd although she does have a quick biting wit but she has some comments on Wilson made by Representative James Clyburn of South Carolina the highest ranking black lawmaker in Congress and his take on Wilson is not a pretty picture.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/16/opinion/16dowd.html?ref=opinion

I wasn’t going to comment, but I think I must say “ditto” to Deryl’s remarks that we seemingly have lost the ability to disagree with one another without demonizing the one with whom we disagree. A very dangerous trend, I believe. I do also believe it is unfair to label as racist anyone on the grounds of disagreeing with President Obama’s policies. However I do not like to see any of our members of Congress slip to the level of being rude during a President’s address to a joint session of Congress. There is a lot of good to be said for being “polite” in any and every setting. And, we need to be teaching that at home, too, quite obviously! In schools, it would also be helpful. PJS

My opinion on these issues are, Because of the Bush Administrations style of leadership, the last eight years brought our country to its knees. I remember the helpless feeling I had as an American citizen to hear that if I disagreed I was unpatriotic etc. The Bush administration’s use of simplistic key words describing complex issues, their cowboy egos, taking us to war, the republican congress strutting around shoving policy down our throats, the blurring of church and state.
They started the ugly behavior on the utmost highest level of our country! Where else are the citizens to go!!!! I may believe this is an awful Karl Rove style plot to DIVIDE AND CONQUER. Once we all go down in the ditches, what next!! Don’t let them take us there, if we remain civil, as Obama is trying so eloquently, then they will look like they should. LIARS, WALL STREET PUPPETS.

Camille Paglia’s comments about the group of people protesting the health care plan as being just people expressing their frustration is partially correct. Some people do feel frustrated because they lost an election by a large margin. They feel isolated, some in their own self-isolation. And they feel afraid

However, she puts a blind eye to several important points:

1. The meetings that she referred to were open meetings where all people, no matter what their position on the health care issue, were allowed to attend, listen and be heard. No groups were banned from participating in the meetings.

2. That said, the vast majority of the people in attendance came to hear and comment, they came to learn. This “grass roots” group clearly came for a different reason, they came simply to disrupt what would have been a good example of the democratic process. They denied the majority of those in attendance their rights.

3. It was clear from the their verbal outbursts that their initial fears were being fired by a set of lies. Looking at where they started, Palin, Beck, Limbaugh, and anonymous e-mails, conservative lies. Examples just look up sources of death panels, Canadian/British surgery age limit, etc.

I attended a “town meeting” set up by one of our National congresspeople weeks after the disruptive meetings. It was well attended by all sides. What struck me was that those who were vehemently against the health care plan were still spouting those same untruths, even after the untruths had been thoroughly proven to be completely false.

If the protesters had justifiable concerns they were overshadowed by their strange interpretation of the democratic process and by the falsehoods they were especially good at yelling.

I like the idea of holding organizations accountable for members actions! BUT how could this be accomplished when there is no accountability anywhere! Certainly not for Bush Cheney, and how about Wall Street.

Obama dropped the l-word first and the vast majority he was addressing with that term were whites. Does this mean that those who suggest Obama is a racist are right?

Obama is hardly the first president to be called a liar. Were they victims of racism?

For many people, Barack Obama is the last chance for people to fight what they see as ever-growing federal government power and interference at the expense of personal liberty. If government by crisis continues to commit our current and future tax dollars to funding an engorged government, citizens will become increasingly depressed and motivated to protest. Pundits, pollsters, and politicians can dismiss this anger as uncivil, extremist, or (the new fallback) racist, but they are just pouring gasoline on a rapidly growing fire.

By the new Joe Wilson standard, the following are all racists: Kayne, Serena, Obama, you, me.

It’s unusual for NPR to have someone who can represent the views of the right on a program. I’m not a big fan of Ms. Paglia’s style and she does talk over people, but she makes some good points and has a perspective that’s almost rare on NPR. Unfortunately, her support for birthers undercuts her credibility.

In any event, I think that those that are overtly racist are on the fringe. As has been said many times on NPR shows, people hide their racism. Even if you’re a dyed in the wool black hater, you’ve learned not to show it in public. You really have to be a complete idiot to put it on a poster. I haven’t seen the pictures this time, but my guess there really aren’t many explicitly racist posters. However, I think the media will search them out to make sure that whatever is there, is highlighted.

A congressman saying “you lie” is racist? And a journalist heard an implied “boy” at the end of that. We really have gone round the bend in caving in to our own projections of people. IMO, most people want to believe that when something goes wrong they’re being persecuted in some way. But at least academics and journalists should be able to deal more objectively with this. With his hiring of Wall Street insiders, exploding the national debt, increasing the war in Afghanistan, and sellout of a single payer system for healthcare, I have more than enough to question his direction.

BTW, why is it more acceptable to be overtly racist if you favor people of color. I’ve heard many times variations on “I’m so proud to see an African American president”. How many people voted for Obama primarily because he’s black? What would people be saying if someone had said “I’m proud to see a white president”? I understand the argument that there’s inherent value in having a black president. But how far should we go? Is it the turn of Latino’s next? When do Asian’s get a shot? And how much do you favor a particular race and how far back do you have to go in history to determine the persecution premium?

Forget lack of civility. We’ve lost the ability to make rational decisions.

Wow, I have to say it was really refreshing to read these comments and see how many people felt what I was feeling. I simply could not listen to Camille P. one more second and had to turn off the radio. Her manner of speaking, her certainty about EVERYTHING she says, her desire to inflame, all of this had me running to shut her up. As I said before, very bad choice of guest.

I did want to ask her one question: If racism is not part of this hatred of Obama, where does she think the insane accusations of his not being an American citizen come from? Something rational?

Camille Paglia should host a radio program titled “Missing the Point.” Ms. Paglia turns every program she is on, into a Fox “news” level program. I’ve always found hysterical, screaming people don’t have facts or history on their side. Her career is a Miracle.

“By the new Joe Wilson standard, the following are all racists: Kayne, Serena, Obama, you, me.”

Perhaps you are right. But, without naming names, let’s take a quick poll who the racist is out of these two individuals:

(a) mixed racial half-black half-white Person from Illinois; or

(b) white person from S. Carolina, who voted against removing the Confederate Flag from the state house, told Thurmond’s half-black daughter that she had smeared Senator’s legacy by revealing it, even if it was true, and publically shouted at the half-black President.

I prefer strong personalities when debating topics like these; especially when people don’t have facts to back up what they say. Frankly this seems like the responsibility of the host, though it has to be equal opportunity.

If you’re going to criticize Paglia, why not do it based on the facts, it really helps your case. Otherwise I’m inclined to believe your criticism has more to do with your bias.

You neglected to mention that the half-white person was an active, long-term member of a church that espoused disturbing racist views that he refused to refute, that he called whites objecting to his views liars, that he supported the views of a another mixed race pseudo-intellectual involved in an altercation with police when the facts supported the white, working class individual …

To concentrate on the motivations of Representative Wilson and Mr. West is to miss the point of the argument entirely. Both of these men’s actions were UNACCEPTABLE in “polite” society and in Representative Wilson’s case against the WRITTEN rules of the United States of America House of Representatives. We are reacting to shock and disbelief of their motivations when we could never prove what they are thinking or feeling.

This is expressly why our legal system, something we all claim to respect and support, is set up the way it is. Laws are not written to govern people’s motives but rather their actions. The focus on the “offender’s” beliefs or motives takes the focus off the violation and shifts it to the violator. This sometimes even allows he or she to frame the debate based their own feelings about the offense instead of the appropriateness of their speech or actions.

I could care less if either the Teabaggers, birthers, deathers, 9-12thers, Glen Beck, Fox News, Representative Wilson or Kanye West have racist views or not. They have the right to believe whatever they want. How could I expect them to respect my right to my beliefs if I did not do the same for them? This sense of respect for the views of others is what true civility is. I do, however, care that speech (yes, signs count) and actions that are inappropriate (heckling the President), factually inaccurate (Death Panels), or comparatively inaccurate (Obama is like Hitler) are not condemned and the persons making these arguments don’t lose credibility. Courteousness and respect would ascend in value if this were so since the incentive to be truthful and appropriate would outweigh the value of support gained by ones with similar ideology.

I was happy to see that I was not alone in turning off this morning’s show. This was the first time, and I hope the last, that I had to do this. Please do not have Camille Paglia as a guest again. There are many, many people who could contribute more insightfully and mor civilly.

I have to agree with Susan Wolf @12:26 pm EDT. Usually the whiff of a conspiracy theory sends me tearing out of the room, but from first viewing on C-Span, I believed Wilson’s “You lie!” to be a set-up.

That said, it has become very clear to this supporter of bi-partisanship that the days of bi-partisanship are over for the time being. We’re talking about the right’s continuing (and well-funded) scramble for naked power. See, for example, Wilson’s bulging campaign chest as of this writing. $2M and growing.

The sooner Obama realizes that it’s about power and uses his political capital(diminishing daily), the better off we’ll all be. We don’t have to be impolite; we just have to use the power given by voters in 11/08 and use it for what we believe to be best for the country.

And we need to quit (over)reacting, complaining and expressing outrage at the right’s unceasingly uncivil, outrageous behaviors. Instead, we should quit listening — quit supporting (with subscriptions, viewings) media and sponsors promoting rudeness, confrontation, and violence.

Just wanted to comment on Jimmy Carter’s “racism” remark. What Wilson said was out of line, but on the other hand, “You lie, boy!” was NOT what was said, so we should not speculate. Second point, to be a racist, you have to have a deep-seated, unprovoked hate for someone’s ethnic origin or color of skin. The media does not help matters in its depiction of certain ethnic groups, however I believe that INDIVIDUALS are ultimately responsible for how they are portrayed in public. Since the headlines have been about President Obama, let’s take blacks for example: if I am on a bus or train sitting next to a black person wearing business attire who speaks english in an educated tone, I feel like ok, this is a seemingly nice person who is sitting next to me (regardless of skin color). If I am sitting next to a black person who’s pants are down to his knees (boxer shorts evident),listening to rap music which is loud and degrading toward women and then says to me “what-choo lokkin’ at, n–a”, then I would definitely feel more tense as this person appears more volatile. You see, for me, it’s more about mannerisms, behaviors and actions. People see so much of a particular set of behaviors associated with a particular group and these associations create a feeling of unrest which can be misinterpreted to mean racism. As for me personally, I could care less if you are dark, coffee-colored or polkadotted…just be respectful in public…because it’s not all about ME, ME, ME!

“You neglected to mention that the half-white person was an active, long-term member of a church that espoused disturbing racist views that he refused to refute, that he called whites objecting to his views liars, that he supported the views of a another mixed race pseudo-intellectual involved in an altercation with police when the facts supported the white, working class individual …”

Posted by Anthony, on September 16th, 2009 at 2:14 pm EDT

I did neglect to mention all this. Details are important, of course. Although, here, you have evidence of associations with some other people. What is it that siggests racism here?

I wish to comment on this statement: “Jimmy Carter now says loud and plain that the coarsening of American politics right now is racism, straight up.”

It is one thing to claim that some of those opposed to the current administration’s policies are racists. It is quite another thing to suggest or insinuate that all or most (forceful) expressions of opposition to the current administration’s policies are clear evidence of an underlying racism. The latter is illogical and ethically objectionable. That sort of tactic is designed not to promote rational public discussion about debatable social issues but to shut it down! Let’s all try hard to avoid going down that politically dangerous and morally irresponsible road.

Peter A. Pagan Aguiar, Ph.D.
Liberal Arts Program – Philosophy
Aquinas College
Nashville, TN 37205

amazing

if we used the rights logic of obama and his church, than therefore he agrees with everything it believes or people in it believe.

Than we can point to the tea-party associations to racist, extreme and people such as rush and far right radio host who are often present or promoting them or CPAC where rush spoke. Cause of course if there in the present of such than there is some associations or the right used about bill A and such sinch you now someone therefore you believe what they do and we can see this in those tea bag parties.

If we used the rights logic of associations than many of these people are indeed racist.

or we can take the look that not all people who have other than postive associations may not believe or don’t believe everything that their associates might.

While I really don’t think that all the incivility and even attacks on Obama are rascist in nature, I also know that it’s easy for white people to say that nothing being said is based in rascism. In many subtle ways it has become more acceptable to be rascist in the last few years. Fox News Network provides opportunities for White males to feel sorry for themselves and feel like they are the underclass. So when an African-American man becomes president, it just fuels those beliefs. I agree with the earlier writer who put accountability on parents. Many parents let their kids get away with all levels of disrespect toward friends, parents, teachers, and other adults. When this is added to what kids, and then adults, see on TV, it’s no wonder we have lost civility between people. We have become a very arrogant nation fueled by fear and a sense of entitlement.
Thank you

One more vote for not putting Camille Paglia on the show. It’s her non-radio friendly voice…also the idea that she believes that there are legitimate concerns with Obama’s birth certificate. What?!

Camille Paglia’s comments referencing the 1960’s are important and relavant as long as we remember that 4 John F. K. Bobby K, Marting Luthewr King Jr. and Malcolm X all were assasinated by individual who belived their positions were validated and supported by angry mobs!

but…. he DID lie

1. C’mon Tiger, I’ve heard Obama’s statements both proven and disproven several times by pundits since his address. It is a matter of perspective and statistical manipulations. The point is Wilson committed a serious breach of long standing etiquette. He was rightly admonished, and richly rewarded at the same time.

2. Lista, you are so right about the “cultural immaturity” of this country. I think this also explains why we lagging behind the rest of the developed world on issues like health care.

3. Those who choose to bypass civil discourse don’t know what they are missing. It is truly enjoyable to hear the perspectives of others and share your own.

4. Radio and Cable squawkers are NOT elected officials, they are entertainers who are becoming wealthy playing on our baser emotions. Ever notice how many have books out? Paid online memberships with mugs and stickers for sale?

5. Racism, vulgarity, and general stupidity are not the domain of any particular ideology, just adherrents of these ideologies uninterested or unable to participate in civil discourse.

I also agree that Camille should not be invited back to discuss issues pertaining to race. I found her offensive and an ironic addition to a discussion about civility.

Paglia lost all credibility to me when she suggested that the Birther Movement has some legitimate questions. I don’t understand how any informed citizen could believe that at this point!

What we are seeing from these town hall meetings is the revolt of the middle class
The value of the dollar is going through the floor with all the money that the federal government is printing to bail out banks, insurance companies and the auto industry. Not to mention all the “Economic Stimulus Programs” all to the tune of 3 TILLION DOLLARS In six months. Now they want to spend another trillion on health care.

The middle class is going to have to pay for all this spending. Oh by the way your health care costs are going up as a result you have to pay more out of pocket costs
for the employer provided insurance plans.

Now the Government is going to mandate coverage for everyone. So it has to pay for it by increasing taxes which will directly affect the middle class.

That is what is leading to this civil unrest. It has nothing to do with race.

Paul

Although my of my political views can probably be characterized as Center/Right, Camille Paglia loses all credibility with any rational human being when she claims “there are “legitimate concerns with President Obama’s birth certificate”.

After hearing this comment, I will never listen to another word that comes out of her mouth.

Brian, thank you for posting the link to the poll above. According to this poll, 42% of Republicans claim there are no concerns about President Obama’s birth certificate, 28% say they have concerns, and 30% say they are not sure. Again, I think this goes back to civility IN BOTH PARTIES. Unfortunately, there is trend in politics to define your rival as “evil”, lacking in character, etc… and a large percentage of Americans will believe (or be “unsure”) any negative commentary about the other party. Harry Reid (e.g. who calls the President’s mother a “B”), Move On.Org (e.g. referring to General Petraeus using “Betray Us”), Al Franken, and countless others on the political center display the same lack of civility as Rush Limbaugh, Glen Beck, and those on the far right. At the risk of sounding “elitist”, my preference is to too let the extremists in both parties do the name calling on the blogs and radio shows, and let the adults ranging from the Center/Right to Center/ Left actually govern the country. We can and should debate the issues vigorously (and also ideology around election time), but compromise should not be dirty word. It is called governing.

not sure and don’t believe obama is a natural born citizen is different from to concern and unconcern obama is is natural born citizen.

believe= to have confidence in the truth, the existence, or the reliability of something, although without absolute proof that one is right in doing so

concern=a matter that engages a person’s attention, interest, or care, or that affects a person’s welfare or happiness

Research 2000 for Daily Kos. 7/27-30. All adults. MoE 2% (No trend lines)

Do you believe(Hench the believe part) that Barack Obama was born in the United States of America or not?

Yes 77
No 11
Not sure 12

How do those numbers break down?

Yes No Not sure
Dem 93 4 3
Rep 42 28 30
Ind 83 8 9

Northeast 93 4 3
South 47 23 30
Midwest 90 6 4
West 87 7 6

break down by age
18-29 88 4 8
30-44 72 14 14
45-59 82 8 10
60+ 69 17 14

it seem Camille Paglia makes up the 4% of the democratic party.

This is the glen B. that these tea baggers are following

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GzKFYcHKbnk

this could be a reason why many blacks don’t like foxs news

http://bravenewfilms.org/blog/?p=572

some more of glen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m9JE5SBm9UU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t44yNRnoYXQ&feature=fvw

Tom,

Please, PLEASE do not subject us to any more Camille Paglia. She is utterly insufferable.

lastly and very troubling from glen

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WiLppliFzbs&feature=related

Where was the indignation and the media hand wringing over “Civility” when Bush was (daily) being burned in effigy, compared to Hitler and Stalin, and accused of being a war criminal? My opposition to health care reform has nothing to do with race–it has to do with the fact that this country is being bankrupted by entitlement spending and I am not keen to see a new entitlement exacerbate the existing problems.

I’ve lost a great deal respect for this program after you gave Camille Paglia a platform for promoting her “birther” views. There is no place on serious radio for this.

then….he DID lie….

Having Camile Paglia on a show talking about poor form & rudeness is ironic. What a shrill, screeching, self-inflated idiot. Good grief.

Tom, the shrill Camille asked for evidence that the agenda or motivation of birthers, tea partiers and DC “off my back” crowd is not legitimate concern over government spending and the “trampling” of rights of the little guy. I give you the deafening silence of these folks for the last eight years as proof positive that their agenda is indeed anti-Obama and rascist and not predicated on an honest evaluation of what our government is doing. While Bush and company was spending $800 billion on a fraudulently induced war, shredding the constitutional protections for the little guy, and giving over government and Wall Street to corporate America, these folks sat silent, indeed cheered him on while he ruined the economy, robbed them of their retirements, proposed forcing their Social Security into the stock market swamp, and diminished us in the world. Now they claim that getting more of them health insurance, expanding Medicare (the program they love) and reducing the embarrassing profits of big Pharma and Insurance, is cause for revolution. Hmmm… lets see… what could the difference be now? Tell Camille to wake up and realize we live in a country populated by many small minded and hateful people, who yes are blinded by their rascism.

How shall I parse this, Camile Paglia is a jack*ss.

There, how’d I do?

She is a piece of work. From the moment she came on the scene in the 90’s I always believed her stance was an act to get her attention. And she’s still at it. What university gave her tenor again? Boy, have you been had.

“Tom, the shrill Camille asked for evidence – - – ” Thanks, Eric, for your clarity of thought. Thinking adults are well aware of how we were brought to the brink by the small mindedness of those who allowed the Bush boys to rule unfettered. Sadly these narrow minded souls remain as neighbors and fellow citizens in a world dearly in need of evidence that someone like the shrill Camille is too self absorbed to see. Oh, how irony does rule.

Kathleen Parker is just another right-wing nut.

The “civil war” she fears – right wing rednecks vs. liberals – ain’t gonna happen.

Ms. Parker and her friends Limbaugh and Hannity etc. are the people stirring civil resentments – let’s not forget Tim McVeigh and the how cheerleading from the “anti-government” folks spurred his “domestic” terrorist actions…

What a joke these working class right wingers are. Wake up!!

If it hasn’t been mentioned yet… Planet Money post about the economics of “acting up” in a school setting.

Tom, you must have her on again. Most listeners are content to just live in an echo chamber and, for the most part, you deliver the views that conform to their own. Once in a while, you challenge them. Look at the above, they’re resorting to namecalling and substance-free critiques. Thanks for taking them out of their comfort zones.

Meant to say tenure. University of the Arts you’ve been had.

Well, C. Paglia is a “birther” and not much of cultural critic in my opinion. She says on your program that there are problems with the documentation of the President’s American birth. She counts herself among the doubters. I submit that these ideas are not credible and do not belong to rational debate. This is hateful material and those that mouth it do not belong on public radio. But you seem to love the mud.

I consider doubters such as C. Paglia to be among the “angry” populists, recently arrived on the American media landscape, who want to bring his administration down at the expense of the common good. Those that oppose reform of health care have enjoyed a pleasant summer, as has the media. I take exception with journalism and radio programs that feed this beast.
I’m not going to listen to On Point program any longer. I don’t listen to R. Limbaugh for similar reasons. Probably many contributors to NPR oppose any change too. Please let me know if I’m wrong here.

I’m for questioning everything: Obama’s birth country, whether man walked on the moon, wmd’s … Too many Americans, and apparently too many listeners to this show, willingly lap up whatever sugar-coated news is processed for your digestion. Americans are extremely lazy thinkers, I’m for whatever gets them engaged. Yeah! So let’s figure out if he’s an American citizen, the whole controversy will result in more Americans understanding the Constitution and what the requirements are to be president. That will be a big step up from people just voting for whoever makes the best promises.

Camille Paglia is defending the birthers and the next breath tells us she’s a Democraton and on the Left?

Please. We don’t want you and we don’t need you.

I swear she just spouts this nonsense so she can collect a paycheck and be a “part of the media”. What crap.

She sounds very angry that the corporate for-profit blood-sucking health insurance companies might have to give up a little of their profits. Real outrage.

The Kathleen Parker doesn’t want to talk about assassination and Obama and then proceeds to talk about it.

Then Paglia starts going into military force put down of popular insurrection. What?????????? Dog whistle much for Alex Jones nuts?

What rock did you drag them people out from under Tom?

Please spare us in the future from an hour of crazies.

Camille Paglia- complete idiot and waste of time. She’s talking out her ass, please pass her the Charmin.

It’s just down right elitist to slap the label of racist on people who offer up different political views. I’m of course referring to stations like NPR and much of liberal paranoia going on out there. It’s a way of cheapening someone’s legitimate and concerned argument. People are concerned about government take over of the private sector, whether it’s health care or whatever, and suddenly america becomes “a racist nation.” “A racist nation” that just elected a black president? Really now guys? We (as a nation) didn’t even elect Obama because he was black, at least i hope not, we elected him because the majority of the population agreed with his policies. If we didn’t elect him because he was black, then when individuals start disagreeing with his policies it’s simply immature to label such dissenters as objectifying to Obama based upon his race. I can’t blame the liberal sphere too much for these immediate reactions of theirs to tea parties and other such “middle america” protests (and i’m libertarian but try my best to keep political opinions from predetermining how i see things), since a lot of their philosophy is founded in being intellectually cynical and post post modern about things (well that’s just because [insert generalization]). I could go on but I feel myself digressing rapidly so I’ll stop for now. Point is; America is not racist. Seriously now guys? COME ON! (see I’m using your own sophisticated cynicism against you)

Camille Paglia is one of the few decent thinkers left in this discourse. How few of her critics here have even tried to take challenge her actual points. If you disagree, make a persuasive argument. For example, she very clearly laid out the philosophical shallowness of each side throwing down their “anger” cards. We all have plenty of reasons to feel insulted, so why don’t we stop this ridiculous ad hominem stuff and talk about the actual issues. Instead all you say is that she should be silenced. Please argue the facts for a change. If you took the time to know her, you’d learn that she actually supports most of things the liberals in congress claim to.

Shortly after his inauguration Gore Vidal called George Bush “simian”, and a cascade of cruel words about him never stopped. But similar treatment of Obama, and you pull out the big guns: racist! Has it occurred to you that once that card is played you’re all out?

Calling Obama’s critics “racist” is one of the most spurious, and fascinatingly empty, defenses of his policies. Think it through: Obama’s approval rating has dropped substantially. Since it’s not likely that people like Wilson voted for him in the first place, the decline is among his own voters. Are you calling YOURSELVES racists? It is a very totalitarian trait to eat your own.

Can we get at least one apologist on the left to start making arguments on the merits?

Worst thing I’ve heard since what’s her name, the Sex and the City idiot. Put those two on a show together. I dare you.

We will see in a few years whether he has lied or not. The new reform bill gives drop babies of illegals health insurance. Amnesty is not far behind. Wait to see Obama’s plan for welfare, trillions in new spending.

There is definitely an increasing lack of civility in American society. It is also true that the right has been hammering issues with ever-higher levels of ridicule of centrist and liberal ideas, effectively moving the national dialog to the right. “Liberal” is now a dirty word, it is normal to carry assault rifles to presidential events, and to think that nothing has to be done about a dysfunctional health care system. Any idea that we should help working people and down on their luck people is now viewed as completely absurd. The American public consistently opposes its own self-interests for fear of losing freedoms that most of them don’t have (e.g. to make medical decisions with their doctor, to change jobs, to have leisure time).

I have been thinking about this program all day.

This program was about civility (or the lack thereof), so it was brilliant to have Camille as a guest.

If America remains divided — Talk Radio Versus NPR — we are doomed.

We need NPR to try to conduct civilized conversations across this divide and I commend you for trying. It also made the point that with a civilized moderator, the irrational arguments (that aren’t backed by substance) just don’t hold up. That’s what happened to Sarah Palin and that’s what happened to Camille on your show.

But you gave her a chance, and that is important.

Thank you, WBUR.

Criticism of Bush and criticism of Obama is a false equivalence. If the accusations against Bush are true as the preponderance of evidence suggests, he was responsible for torture, unconstitutional detention of citizens and non-citizens, lying to start a war and kill tens of thousand of people, politicizing the Justice Dept, etc. There is no equivalent record for Obama, hence comparing the types of criticisms directed against them is not really a valid way of talking what is going on now.

So we have a show on civility, and out of 160-plus posts here a large proportion are carping about Camille Paglia, rather than advancing the discussion. This is like carrying around offensive signs when exchange of views can be achieved.
Some of us have heard Paglia before, seen her on TV, heard her on NPR, from I think the mid-1990s, talking about feminism, I believe, talking about religion. Never in ways one could constructively engage with, either from at home or in person, that I noted. I have checked publications to see if that is her forte, and decided she belonged to the world of the ivory tower. I left the house today, laughing to myself as I went at Tom’s use of bleeps in uncivil quotes or examples. I totally “screened out” (busy as I was) almost everything except the “music” of the hour, I mean the dynamics and tone, hosted I thought boldly and well.
If currying fervor is becoming the American style, to the point there is legitimate fear we could become our own worst enemies, we need examples of incivility met with humor and resilience. I thought I heard some.
What do we do? Complain and condemn.

“On questions of civility”
It goes deeper than outbursts and attacks. While West, Federer,and Williams are not mature yet and lack self control, Joe Wilson displayed disrepect for the nation’s leader….yes, in a racial kind of way. All four lack wisdom that should come with age.

Where has this notion of that racial bias in American culture in my region over the past several decades has not improved would be a misconception. There are more than a handful of Black people who prosper and live fulfilling lives. The perceived idea that a productive and contented environment can be achieved through hard work and integrity is a widespread belief. What should also be given some examination is the belief by a significant percent of Americans that it inherently exist in Black people one of the following, a genetic and or intellectual inferiority, emotional or psychological inferiorities, social deficiencies, poor environmental decisions and other hindrances to having the capability to perform, or develop to the level of Caucasian Americans. To site the fact that of participating voters a majority, 66,882,230* Americans, voted for a Black, African-American man to be President and that the vast majority of those people were Caucasian and or of the belief that Black people are not inferior, does not account for the fact that all of those people represent only 22 % the 300 million citizens of the U.S.. This is not to imply that the rest of the population believes the opposite or that people who voted for President Obama’s opponents do either. However, if we choose to ignore the starting place for equality in America then haphazard folly will prevail. America at one time bred, programmed and conditioned non citizens to believe they were inferior; we at one time removed and prohibited literacy among these individuals. Collectively we how somehow convinced the mainstream that this had little to no effect on the future development of our separate and combined cultures. Blacks were the vast majority of these people, and although our representatives have over the years legislated proactively to undo or correct in some way those acts. The has been recently a idea that we now live in a Post-Race America where one race on longer matters in the grand scheme but, As soon as and during the 2008 election it was commonly accepted that some people would not vote for a Black person, period. And just because their belief did not prevail it does not mean that that belief system or mindset changed. It could be argued that it would be viewed as a threat to their well being and even their perceived reality. America hopes that these individuals personal beliefs wouldn’t promote bias in their daily lives that would hinder or negatively impact Black people financially, socially, environmentally etc, however by examining the data of Black Americans compared to other ethnic and cultural groups usually points to major gaps in all areas of life. Why is this so? Are Blacks inferior? Are we unaware of imbedded policies in government and society designed to subjugate Black people? Are there intentional measures to legislate or implement these beliefs? When did white supremacists change their minds? Should they be on terror watch list for domestic terrorism, it is terrifying to think that people may be working against me just because of my race. There are many possibilities but they should definitely be revealed through exchange and debate amongst our citizens.

I podcast your show and listen to it when I’m working my overnight shift. I’m sure agitation showed on my face everytime Camille Paglia opened her mouth to unleash her many verbal assaults. My co-workers probably thought I was having a really bad night. The one thing that struck me was her countless claims to be a Democrat when she continually proved herself to be a right-wing nut-case everytime she let loose with that screech of hers.
I really enjoy listening to On-Point, but please, no more guest appearances from this dreadful woman.

[...] Salon.com columnist who can count on her ramblings getting regular links from The Drudge Report, appeared on NPR’s “On Point” yesterday and made a spirited defense of the “birther” movement. The exchange came [...]

[...] Salon.com columnist who can count on her ramblings getting regular links from The Drudge Report, appeared on NPR’s “On Point” yesterday and made a spirited defense of the “birther” movement. The exchange came [...]

“The one thing that struck me was her countless claims to be a Democrat when she continually proved herself to be a right-wing nut-case everytime she let loose with that screech of hers.”
**

Ah yes. The “logic” of ‘Democrats good-Republicans bad’ strikes again.

President Obama started the faux-racism meme way back in December of 2006 when he essentially called people like me, who deeply disagree with his politics, racists:

“Are some voters not going to vote for me because I’m African-American? Those are the same voters who probably wouldn’t vote for me because of my politics.”

Had Mr. Obama espoused Thomas Sowell’s small-government political philosophy, I would have been behind him all the way. Here’s more from my blogpost at the time:

http://sisu.typepad.com/sisu/2006/12/obama_called_me.html

I guess civility depends on whose ox is being gored. When the Minutemen were shouted down at an Ivy League School and not even allowed to speak, when Bush was called an idiot, mocked, and vilified as a person, and not on his policies, then where were these whining sniveling liberals. I am a neither, and I a Libertarian so I call em as I see ‘em. You get what you have been giving liberals.
On the groundswell of opposition… be dismissive all you want but I did not see 60,000 or 100,000 or whatever the number of people get on buses and travel to Washington in support of Obama’s health insurance plan. Just the opposite.

“Ah yes. The “logic” of ‘Democrats good-Republicans bad’ strikes again”

Ah yes the “logic” of independent good, democrats/republicans bad.

If you feel that what Camille view on the birthers and what she stated is correct than prove it otherwise it seems you bring nothing to the conversation other than your ego.

If your not going to explain yourself than there no need for your responses.

thanks,

“when Bush was called an idiot, mocked, and vilified as a person, and not on his policies,”

Bush was called an idiot or worse because of his policies, not as a person. After 9/11 his approval rating was in the 90s. It quickly fell when he started pushing for the Iraq war, and his incompetence in handling the post-war matters, and his ineptness during the Katrina debacle, and the incompetence of the people he put in charge of things, and his failure to deliver Bin Laden “dead or alive,” and his “bring it on” remark, and his putting Afghanistan on backburner, and his transforming budget surplus into a deficit, and his complete inability to deal with the economic meltdown, so that even Wall Street was screaming: “where is Obama?” before Obama even took office, and other things that are too numerous to list here. His approval rating in the 20s at the end should have been even lower. So suck it up buddy, your party has produced the worst President in the American history, and the people’s disdain towards him was richly deserved. I don’t see any hypocrysy.

Dear Tom,

I really appreciate this show and the show you did a month or so ago on right wing inflammatory rhetoric.

Although I’ve engaged in non-stop defense of Professor Paglia since the early 90s, and I revere her exuberant dissent, her acknowledgement of the birther movement is absurd. Taking that together with her refusal to acknowledge a reassertion of racism in this country lately, I find her performance today ludicrous. No disrespect, Professor.

I also appreciate your refusal, Tom, to let the racism — which often accompanies populism in this country — be dismissed by guests or callers.

Perhaps it would be better if we stopped collapsing the racist uprising with “conservatism” and found a more exact term: Jack Beatty talked about “White Nationalism” last Friday; I’m happy with that: let’s call them White Nationalists.

“If you feel that what Camille view on the birthers and what she stated is correct than prove it otherwise it seems you bring nothing to the conversation other than your ego.”

**

Right, right, greg. And whose ego are you bringing to the conversation, not to mention the obvious illogic of your statements?

“If your (sic) not going to explain yourself than (sic) there no need for your responses.

thanks,”

**

Duly noted, greg, and I’ll try better to kowtow to your weird logic and idiotic wishes. You see, I was under the impression that this is an open forum where different and diverse views can be expressed, as long as they agree with the comment policy of WBUR. My mistake, and I apologize that I didn’t realize you were controlling and deciding on the participants to be let into the discussion, as well as the kind of views they should express.

******
If Paglia identifies herself as a Democrat (and I don’t know whether she does or not), that’s it – doubt that you can make that decision for her. I don’t think there’s a set of rules that one needs to follow before one can call oneself a Democrat (or a Republican).

Today, you’re as likely to find pro-choice as well as pro-life Democrats who are active in politics. Obama and many Democrats are not in favor of same-sex marriage. The same Democrats who voted for Obama in California in 2008, also voted for Proposition 8. Based on facts, I don’t see any homogeneity in Democratic party, or a single valid view on issues being termed as the “Democratic Party” view and rest other views as not belonging to the Democratic Party.

And your comment actually validated my earlier statement as well as its logic, so thanks a lot, greg.

as you did not answer the question i will not bother after this response since you yourself can not be civil or answer. As my questions was

“If you feel that what Camille view on the birthers and what she stated is correct than prove it otherwise it seems you bring nothing to the conversation other than your ego”.

you did not.

Never once said one could not comment only that if you were not going to responsed to the question posed than it was a waste.

I should have guessed that like your response to my question would be a waste since it would descend to personal attacks like you did instead of stating why you thought Ms.Paglia was correct. Than you go off from the question asked(forming a apples to oranges comparison).

Today, you’re as likely to find pro-choice as well as pro-life Democrats who are active in politics. Obama and many Democrats are not in favor of same-sex marriage. The same Democrats who voted for Obama in California in 2008, also voted for Proposition 8. Based on facts, I don’t see any homogeneity in Democratic party, or a single valid view on issues being termed as the “Democratic Party” view and rest other views as not belonging to the Democratic Party.

as this was not the question but the questions were about the birthers. It hard to take your comments seriously and seems you pride yourself on not being a Democrat or Repubician yet provided nothing as a independent other than it seems attacking democrats.

It seems as well about Paglia responses on birthers and some of the statements rightfully so were pointed out to be out there and closer to the far-right your reply was ad hominem attack.

“I’ll try better to kowtow to your weird logic and idiotic wishes.”

unless this the debate your wish to have on a thread asking about question of civility?

I’ll take the higher road and not inflat your ego since i’m assuming this is what you want.

remember the website sets the standards not one as yourself

While we encourage a robust, open debate on the topic at hand, these comment threads are moderated by On Point and WBUR, and we may delete comments that we judge to be off-topic, unduly repetitive, or that descend into personal, ad hominem attacks.

Camille Paglia needs to calm down and actually talk reasonably; however, I do recognize that the rest of you handled that wonderful display of self-victimization quite well, mind teaching that to all other media.

WH: President Obama Disagrees with Former President Carter that Most Animosity Towards Obama is Race-Based

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/2009/09/wh-president-obama-disagrees-with-former-president-carter-that-most-animosity-towards-obama-is-raceb.html

[...] Salon.com columnist who can count on her ramblings getting regular links from The Drudge Report, appeared on NPR’s “On Point” yesterday and made a spirited defense of the “birther” movement. The exchange came about 36 [...]

What made the liberal democrats mad enough to wet their panties was that Joe Wilson told the truth.

Paglia’s tolerance for the absurd and extremely malicious lies about Obama’s citizenship being spread by “birthers” is appalling, but consider this:

Here Paglia is willing to acknowledge in a high-minded, liberal way “the legitimate questions” raised by the birthers, who have absolutely no evidence to substantiate their rash claims, BUT she is completely intolerant of any conversation that questions what role one of THE most powerful forces at work in American history — racism — is playing in our politics today.

It’s ludicrous.

MIGHT racism motivate white southerners when it comes to a black man being the chief executive of the federal government?

This seems a reasonably question, yet Paglia claims it is unfair to ask!

But according to Paglia, it is not unfair to claim — with NO evidence — that Obama was born in Kenya. According to Paglia, it is not unfair — again, with NO evidence, to claim that the president is an illegal alien.

I’m all for civility, but Professor Paglia just doesn’t have an educated historical sense when it comes to American politics.

Why did Camille Paglia find it appropriate to yell during most of the show? I found it highly ironic for her to be invited onto a show about civility, and then to dominate the discourse, interrupt, disrespect other opinions and frequently make snide and dismissive side comments. Although, underscoring the point of another guest…I never would have looked up her name had she been polite, thoughtful, and respectful of other guests on the program.

Further, I object to the idea near the end of the show that the virtues of order, civility and respect belong solely to the political Right. The Right is far more wed to civility-corroding libertarian individualism than is the authentic Left.

[...] and feminist Camille Paglia has for the second time chimed in on the issue (via WorldNetDaily): Talking to the NPR program “On Point” this week, she provided a defense to the citizens who carried protest signs asking “Where’s The [...]

Great point Christopher.

Is it not funny republicans, teabaggers, supposed independents, and this Paglia still pushing the birther issue even know it makes no sense whatsoever and has been shown to be false, or there earlier attakcs by saying he didn’t take the oath on the bible or won’t do the pledge even after it was proven to be false.

Next we will hear how bad obama is cause he listens to rap, or he’s a hilter for telling kids to not do drugs. or maybe his shoes are foriegn made meaning he’s a muslim.

These people are foaming at the mouth to attack him and will latch on to anything no matter how crazy to de-legitimatize his presidency cause of some fear that they will no longer be in charge.

On top cry and play the victim(funny that they tell minorites who are abused not to) and demand the main stream media cover there looneyness and cry even more when they get called out for being a racist, fringe, an extremist.

Since they can no longer say what on there minded in the open, they must you subtly ways to do so, key words remember “baby momma” “terrorist fist bump” “pallying around with terrorist” “or the go back to kenya” and many more yet we are not suppose to see this or call them out on it, but instead see the yelling, and crazy comparisons as civil debate.

great piece below

For the last eight years, we’ve observed Karl Rove’s non-reality based universe in which logic was entirely abandoned in lieu of whatever reality the administration invented in order to serve its ridiculous policies and to mask its glaring nincompoopery. Intellectually dishonest at best — destructive and criminal at worst.

This didn’t end on Election Day.

Since their thumpin’ last week, the far-right has pushed the crazy to eleven and snapped the knob clean off — an opening salvo of twisted hackery portending an insane four-to-eight years of attacks on the Obama administration. If the last seven days have been any indication, the far-right is shaping up to make the 1990s seem quaint — even erudite by comparison. That which used to be your basic, off-the-shelf intellectual dishonesty has grown into, as Digby pointed out recently, full-on intellectual violence.

Intellectual violence. While not a new term, it perfectly defines what we’re seeing now: accusations and smears that so severely confound logic they literally attack — violate — reality and the human intellect. It’s like a berzerker dervish of argumentative elbows and fists indiscriminately flailing around, thwacking anything in its orbit, so much so that constructing a counterpoint is literally painful, “Why the hell am I trying to debunk this?! Ow! My head. Aw hell, I need a drink.”

The “Impeach Obama” Facebook groups, for example. No, I’m not making that up. They’re real and there’s a constant variety of disgruntled far-right Republicans joining up every day. And, to our total lack of surprise, they’re not ashamed in the slightest to post comments like this one:

“Damn dems stole the election like they always do. GOD wanted McCain and Palin in the White House. That’s why it’s called THE WHITE HOUSE.”

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/bob-cesca/what-doesnt-kill-the-far_b_143398.html

I did not hear the radio show, but I want to say that I appreciate Camille Paglia’s principled stand regarding Obama’s unsealed records and documentation proving that he meets Article II, Section 1 of the Constitution requirements to serve as President of the United States. I think she is reasonable to leave that question open, because none of the proofs have been provided.

Because Obama is half black, he was given a pass on everything. No medical records, school records, college theses, or birth documentation have been released. Official records on file with the FEC show that he has spent close to $1.5 million on defense lawyers rather than simply show his original birth certificate. Why would someone do that? It’s possible that that money is from campaign donations. All of this should be investigated.

Are we a nation of laws or of lawyers? Do we have a Constitution or don’t we? If Obama has violated the Constitution so egregiously by running for president when he knew he wasn’t qualified, that means that the Constitution no longer is in effect. That means that anyone can be picked up for no reason and thrown in jail. It means that our form of government has changed.

And those of us who doubt Obama’s eligibility are not looking at his color. He is half black and half white. I really don’t care what he looks like; what’s important is whether or not he is constitutionally qualified. Even Bill Clinton said that before the election. And I don’t believe John McCain was qualified either, as he was born in Panama, not on a military base as is commonly believed.

greg,

I’m willing to bet my last penny that you wouldn’t recognize an ad hominem argument if it hit you in the face. And don’t tell me about civility – just take a look at your first response to me and ask yourself whether it passed the civility test or not.

Yes, I will criticize Democrats, Republicans or anyone who I think deserves criticism based on facts. Those in the driver’s seat have to face criticism – so deal with it.

BTW, here’s the comment that I commented on:

“…when she continually proved herself to be a right-wing nut-case everytime she let loose with that screech of hers.”

Here’s an exercise for you: see if you can figure out the logic in that sentence.

Obama has told the Repubs to shut up. Maybe this was Joe Wilson’s only chance to be heard.

“still pushing the birther issue even know it makes no sense whatsoever and has been shown to be false”

Actually it hasn’t. Not by a country mile. Obama has an army of lawyers preventing the release of his long form birth certificate (and all of his college records and papers). The only people who have seen the short form certificate of live birth (which could be issued long after the child is born) is FactCheck.org which has no credibility in this case because it’s owned by the Annenburg foundation and Obama worked for them. It all points to something being hidden. I doubt that it’s the location of the birth, I suspect it’s something else that might be embarrassing on the certificate. Like maybe Dad really is Dad.

Thanks for that quote on “intellectual violence” from Huffington Post. It gives me a toe in the door on some really tough-to-unravel disconnects. I hate to say tough-to-unravel “arguments” or “issues” because in many ways there is no “there” there. It seems there is a cultural nervous breakdown on the other side of actually making your point.
Have you ever seen any “give”? Maybe you have to expect total meltdown when you state your case and are heard. It is a style of confrontation at issue.

Racism or not, what we are experiencing (and I don’t pretend to know if it was worse in the past or not) is a real lack of ability or willingness for folks to engage in civil, reasoned discourse. As Kathleen pointed out, many people avoid struggling with ideas and arguments and resort to simplistic, “shoot the messenger” type rhetoric.

I’m no Enlightenment era rationalist, but we can make no progress without a commitment to avoiding basic, high-school level logical fallacies in our arguments. Calling someone a “racist” is one of those logical fallacies. But, so is calling someone a “socialist”. We all struggle with racism throughout our daily lives – it’s unavoidable. And socialism is useless, simplistic term that means nothing outside of the context of a real country with real people.

Thus, if you want to advocate for yourself, learn how to make an argument based on well-researched fact and hypothetical reason – whatever side you are on.

If anything, it’s easier on everyone’s ears.

I am not a racist. I don’t like Obama. I have friends who are African American who don’t like Obama.

My family has lived in America since 1757. The other side met the boat, they were here already. If I can prove this fact, why can’t Obama simply provide America with his official birth certificate?

It is a simple request. The long form, birth cert. with all the information that we are required to provide at various times in our lives. I would think that if I need it for a job at an aerospace company, he would provide it as the leader of America. I am Native American. I don’t consider an employer racist when I am asked to provide the same information that he is asked to show us. My job is nothing compared to his.

While he is at it, why not find the college records that he is probably keeping in the same box w/ his birth certificate? Wahoo, failed a class? Big deal. What is the big secret about?

I wonder if he is laughing up his sleeve because he is so good at manipulation that he knows that nothing is wrong but he gets points because people are angry because he won’t show it.

I believe that the people shouting racist/racism all the time are missing the point; the color of your skin doesn’t make you right or above reproach either.

I hated Fox News. I was a lifelong Dem. Not any more.

Obama, I believe, is Arab and Muslim, not African American and Christian. The sorry thing is, if he is what I believe and said proudly that he was, I would be less annoyed because he would not be as Wilson said, “Liar.”

Abby, Obama was vetted by the FBI. He was born in Hawaii.
He is not an Arab or a Muslim, if you believe this I guess you also believe in Santa,the Tooth fairy and trolls.

millard-fillmore -

“If Paglia identifies herself as a Democrat (and I don’t know whether she does or not)”…

Did you listen to the show? Paglia prefaced many of her tirades with “I’m a Democrat, but…
————-
“The one thing that struck me was her countless claims to be a Democrat when she continually proved herself to be a right-wing nut-case everytime she let loose with that screech of hers.”

This statement of mine is simply pointing out that Paglia was contradicting herself during the entire show. To question the logic of this statement says more about your lack of comprehension than it does any lack of logic on my part.

Perhaps you should familiarize yourself with the content of the subject at hand before you degrade the logic of someone who would dare hold a different view than you.

“This statement of mine is simply pointing out that Paglia was contradicting herself during the entire show. To question the logic of this statement says more about your lack of comprehension than it does any lack of logic on my part.”
**

Pat, so your logic is (as best as I can deduce from your statements – feel free to correct me):

1. If you questions Obama’s birth-certificate, you are not a Democrat, and are a right-wing nut.

2. Your position on this single issue (”birther”) is the sole criteria for deciding whether you’re a Democrat or not, irrespective of your views on other issues.

But, Paglia proved your logic wrong, didn’t she? Or maybe she missed the memo that the Democratic high command sent out to the faithful.

Us vs. them?

For the record, I do think that the “birthers” people are grasping at imaginary straws.

millard-fillmore,

Let me start by saying I am not a member of the Democrat, Republican or any party. I’ve split tickets in many elections. I don’t believe this is a right/left issue anyway, but one of common sense. I have many conservative friends who are appalled at the behavior of this fringe element.

As to Ms. Paglia, her far-right contentions concerned more than the birthers; she spoke to other issues in the same vein, i.e. health care, immigration, and even the women’s movement. I just find it rather amusing that she wants to label herself a democrat or progressive when she has no such proclivities.

Also, Iam not saying if you question Obama’s birth certificate that you cannot be a Democrat. Iam sure there are some of those, though not as many as their counterparts. I do think if one questions the validity of his birth certificate, however, that puts you on the fringe of the far-right and you will probably believe anything Glen Beck or Lou Dobbs says. And that, I think, is nuts.

Bedtime for me. Good day.

By Ms. Paglia’s argument in support of the birthers in today’s show one can simply replace birthers with segregationist and see how quickly her argument falls apart like the house of cards that it is.

Camille Paglia talks too much too fast. I feel sorry for her husband

I just listened to the podcast of this show and want to say that I found Paglia to be be quite uncivil, which introduced a discordant note in a discussion which was supposed to be about civility. She interrupted others and talked through and over what others had to say. She was also dismissive and insulting in her characterizations of those who disagreed with her (unlike the two other guests who were class acts imo).

She says that she supported Obama yet she says that the birther’s “concerns” are legitimate. Does she mean that the concerns about Obama’s citizenship have merit or does she mean that it is legitimate for anyone to express their concerns, whatever they may be (except for those who are concerned about racism and sexism)?

One of the weirder shows I have heard in awhile.

So does this mean that Kanye West’s outburst was racially motivated?

New England Patriot –

Your post illustrates many characteristics of the reactionary, white populist ire.

You did NOT listen to the show, but you appreciate the points made by the guest who ostensibly supports the conclusion you’ve already decided to accept, regardless of the facts.

You claim on the one hand that “birthers” have raised questions that deserve to remain “open.” You also claim that Obama has never proved his citizenship.

Then you say that Obama has not received any criticism because he is black.

Sir, you don’t seem to have any information about these topics.

Obama is, in fact, a citizen. He has, in fact, demonstrate this. There are no “legitimate questions” about his citizenship. You are a part of a fringe group of conspiracy nuts. Do you understand that?

The problem is that journalists and media sources are not doing a good enough job denying birthers and other whackos time on newscasts they simply don’t deserve.

Christopher:

Yes, Obama is a citizen. The question at issue is:

“Is Barack Obama a Natural Born Citizen of the Unit5ed States as was intended by the Framers of the US Constitution?”

No passport records, no (original) birth or medical records, no college records and many other questions remain unanswered. Obama Sr. was never a US citizen.

The people raising the eligibilty question assert that a Natural Born Citizen is a citizen by every natural test available ~ that is, born on US soil to parents both of whom are citizens. Obama himself has admitted that he bas born with dual citizenship.

It is a legitimate question Obama should resolve it by producing the historial artifacts of his background for the sake of history as well as the unification of the nation. Instead he has paid lawyers to seal his records from public examination.

WHY?

First of all, apologies to anyone under 40 for your education; you will have no idea what I am talking about below. Let me speak to the boomers not Prozaced, doped up, or zoned out.

Funny for old boomers who fought the rednecks in the streets over Tricky Dick’s meat grinder in Vietnan to read the posts here.

With a few noun changes, you people could pass almost sentence for sentence for the establishment reactionary supporters of Nixon in 1970. You are dogmatic, narrow minded and hyper supporters of the man in power. How dare someone question a birth certificate? Listen to yourselves. Pitiful.

Once upon a time the progressive mantra was “QUESTON AUTHORITY”. You now sound like the sycophantic paranoids who called anyone against the Vietnam War a communist.. And today? Anyone against the man behind the Afganistan /Iraq/ Pakistan/ Iran war is a racist?

You have disgraced the meaning of progressive. (And so have you National Propaganda Radio.)

By the way, some of you seem to have no idea who Camille Paglia is. At least, look at her wiki before you put in the snide comments about her husband.

“QUESTON AUTHORITY”.

Really? Any authority or just of the opposite party?

Regrettably throughout history, even smart people have been duped into believing crank theories–creationism, social darwinism, parapsychology, eugenics.

In the case of birthers, even if you provide them with strong evidence against their theory, they will insist that the evidence is also part of the conspiracy. And as a result, their conspiracy becomes self serving–no evidence can possibly refute their theory unless it’s the evidence they’re seeking.

Camille Paglia has lost all credibility. Subscribing to birthers is right up there with the Flat Earth Society. It’s lamentable that she has given academic cover to nothing more than a bunch of kooks who are hell-bent on proving their conspiracy despite their lack of evidence and strong evidence to the contrary.

If you can’t question a black president like you can a white president, doesn’t this say, a black man can not hold the office of president and be fairly questioned? Doesn’t this promote only whites being fairly questioned? What will ever be the motivation to elect a black president, if he can’t be questioned without race being considered a reason of disagreement. If the race card is exploited, it will be a very long time before a black man will be elected as president again. Skin color should not put you on a pedistal or keep you from being treated equally.

We should embrace politcal activism. The common man should be more involved with politics. We each have a right to our voices. Our representatives are not even answering their emails. If they do, they are sending out generalized form letters. There needs to be accountablity.

Dear Tom Ashbrook

Ref: Questions of Civility, and More

You can feel the tone in Professor Camille Paglia’s voice. She said that she is a Democrat (most people say this to gain legitimacy when they are actually on the other side), but disagrees with the way Obama is ‘ramming through the health care reform’ – that it smacks of ‘big government’. What is the fundamental assumption behind the notion of ‘a big government’? Are these assumptions flawed? Does it really exist? Let the Professor Paglia define for me ‘big government’. There is no such thing as ‘big government’, no such thing as ’small government’. Government is the people, and the people are government. The instruments of government such as the laws, regulations and ministrations are of what the people have decided. It happens that some people do not like a ‘government run’ healthcare, that’s some people, but others think the government should be involved – that’s some other people.

The professor said something to the effect that Obama has lost the direction of this healthcare reform – the point is this: a pragmatic and intellectual person like Obama has to stay out of the dust-slinging, for when it settles, as it will eventually do, he will then speak – and this is what he did in his address to the Congress about healthcare reform. When it is all said and done, America still needs healthcare reform. In what form the healthcare should take, is the question that is most pertinent – Obama has proposed a middle-of-the-road solution, which is sensible and cost effective. But the professor keeps referring to ‘government take-over of the healthcare system’. Civility also means the ability to accurately represent the statements and intentions of others as well as recognising the change in direction of these statements and intentions. Obama initially proposed a government run insurance healthcare to more or less compete with the insurance companies, after the dust-slinging, he reflected, and saw some of the merits in the arguments from his opponents, he took this on board, and has since modified his position – evidenced in his address to the Congress. The female professor did not acknowledge this, thus she was not civil at all.

Thanks a lot for your great show – I stumbled across it four years ago, and I have always listen online from England. Your archives used to be based on themes, such as education, politics, Ethnicity, etc., but is now set in term of years. I think you should change it back to themes or a combination of both, so that the listener could pick out a show they want to listen to, particularly the older shows. I liked the conversion you had with John Franklin Hope, now that he has died, can you do a post-mortem on his work and life?

Regards
Edosa Eweka
Grays, Essex. England

“Anyone against the man behind the Afganistan /Iraq/ Pakistan/ Iran war is a racist?”

What the hell are you talking about? The only people against said wars are actually Obama’s supporters. I did not see a single sign at the DC protests demanding that Obama bring our troops home. If I did I could actually support them. On the other hand, I did not hear anyone accusing Cindy Sheehan of being a racist. The only Republican who came out against the war in Afghanistan was George Will. He has not been called racist either.

Your blanket statement “Question Authority” in today’s context simply means that we should give equal respect and consideration to the Vietnam era protesters and the modern-day “birthers.” If that’s the case, then I want to know what REALLY happened on 9/11. Let’s march on Crawford and “question.”

Texas Voter –

Obama would NOT be the first president of the United States whose parents were not both citizens.

Obama was born in Hawaii, which meets the sole criteria recognized by the courts.

You’re obfuscating and dancing around on this issue, I think it’s pretty clear, is motivated by BIGOTRY.

[...] recently, on a National Public Radio show called “On Point,” Camille Paglia defended the protesters in Washington DC who were carrying [...]

It seems that the people who doubt President Obama’s birth right will never believe he was born in the US no matter how much evidence is presented.

The fact is he was vetted and if there was one once of doubt of his not being born in this country he would not be president, period.

For those who think he was born in Kenya I guess your saying that his mother flew from Hawaii to Kenya, then gave birth and flew back. Are you people serious?

When Bush Addressed Congress in 2005 it was a State of the Union Speech, which is tradition, and not only dod he receive boos from that”august” audience, but he was called “fool, fool, fool” (listen closely to the audio): so much for civility.

Now, when President Obama addressed the joint session of Congress nearly two weeks ago, it was not the customary State of the Union occasion, rather it was a sales pitch to gain support for his healthcare plan. Moreover, he did speak deceptively, a fact evidenced by the Senate’s inclusion of a prohibition on insuring illegal aliens. Still more, he spoke a half-truth at best when he promised that cuts would be made if his projected cost, just shy of a trillion dollars, could not be met. This is a lie, because no Congress is obligated to adhere to spending limits imposed by a prior Congress. Still again more, Obama said he’d fund a “new” plan from cost-savings in Medicare, but Medicare is nearly insolvent and any savings gained will be needed to prop it up. In fact, a close analysis and parsing of Obama’s speech shows that much of what he said was untrue. Is that lying? You be the judge, but there’s sufficient grounds for challenging him even in a forum such as the U.S. Congress.

Paglia continues the idiocy:

http://washingtonindependent.com/59655/paglia-birthers-arent-racist-and-they-have-a-point

It’s not about lying. They all do it. There is a difference between yelling out you lie to the President than booing, while is not a good thing is not breaking with the rules of the house. That’s the bottom line.

A man is never more truthful than when he acknowledges himself a liar.
– Mark Twain

It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there is no distinctly native criminal class except Congress.
– Mark Twain

Stating that President Obama is loosing popularity due to racisms is an insult to those who voted for him based on his promises and are now turning against him based on his actions.

Well, time to throw C. Paglia under the bus. We all know that’s how liberals have to deal with dissent. Discredit her, call her insane, a conservative shill…something,anything but let her make you think about why you all worship Obama and corrupt politicians.

[...] I’m not sure. But I do know NPR’s On Point aired a fantastic segment last week called “Questions of Civility” that discussed these events and more. It’s a great conversation—check it out here. [...]

This is the first time I have heard Ms. Paglia’s commentary on public matters. As a liberal, I appreciate hearing a critical voice from my own political tradition. But I am disinclined to take seriously the voice of one who claims that the “birther” controversy had any legitimacy whatsoever. To deny the blatantly racist undertones of that movement one needs to meticulously ignore the “not one of us” and “not a real American” comments going back to the ‘08 campaign.

This and other comments made by Ms. Paglia lead me to suspect that part of her criticism is made for the purpose of self-aggrandizement. A quick Google search reveals that she is no stranger to such criticism in the the realms of feminism and academia.

While I believe that every movement should have a contrarian for its own benefit, one wonders whether Ms. Paglia plays that role for the sake of notoriety alone.

I think one of your email comments had it right…times of stress actually bring the worst out of a lot of people. This does not mean that the people who are losing their civility are the ones who are stressed out due to circumstances although that is very likely. Given the economic situation in the country in the past year and the fact that Americans see that their country is slowly losing its pre-eminence in the world, are the real causes in my opinion. I am an Indian living in India (and an avid listener of NPR) and in my analysis the lack of civility and competitiveness that you see in third world countries is a direct result of the hardships that the people of these countries face. People in third world countries have to fight for everything (even the rich have to be uncivil to get the services they need) which raises the stress levels and therefore the level of uncivility. This is quite likely the cause in US too today. Internet, Blogging etc are simply making it easier to express that frustration. Given my analysis this behavior is only going to increase in the coming years as other countries get closer to US in stature.

I find it really ironic that Camille Paglia, a woman who has devoted a great deal of her time and energy to attacking transgender women such as myself, to be a panelist on a show about the coarsening of public discourse.

I’ve read some of the comments about Ms. Paglia, and frankly, I stopped taking her seriously when she characterized the shouting matches at town hall meetings as “ordinary citizens … challenging their elected representatives and making a mark on the media.”

The purpose of this broadcast was to discuss civility in our national dialogue. A civil dialogue is a discussion: one party speaks, then allows the other party to respond. The town hall meetings that have garnered the most attention have been those in which the “ordinary citizens” continued to shout and tirade while their “elected representatives” were speaking. I don’t begrudge my fellow citizens a level of emotion in the questions they ask, but after you’ve finished shouting at your congressperson, please sit down and let them respond. That, to me, creates a successful town hall meeting. Yet Ms. Paglia suggests that the true “success” of these meetings is the verbal abuse some of these congresspeople have suffered from their constituents. Deserved or not, there is no civility in such a “dialogue.”

The fear and hatred of Camille Paglia emerging from these threads is telling – and troubling. She simply granted that the Birthers (some of whom are no doubt nuts, same as the polled ~32% of Democrats who think Bush knew about the 9/11 attacks beforehand) might have some points and that there are questions to be answered. (If there were not, why is so much biographical documentation being sequestered by Obama?) The tradition of free inquiry and bold opinion is being subsumed to political correctness. Opponents of evil administrations – whether that’s Bush’s administration or any other – would do well to remember Nietzsche: “Take care that in fighting monsters, you do not become one.” And for the record, I am *not* a Birther.