WOW! Thank you, On Point in advance for this terrific topic. My day is maxed out tomorrow, but you can believe I’ll find an hour somewhere to listen to this online. Thank you, thank you.

Inequality, by itself, is not a sufficient condition for a social revolution. According to Lenin, two things must coincide: (1) upper classes are no longer able to rule in the old manner, and (2) lower classes no longer want to live in the old manner. As to #1, the upper classes here are doing just fine and are able to enact whatever legislation or reform they please. As far as lower classes, 67% of the population are homeowners and mortgage payers. Who’s gonna revolt? Workers and peasants? That’s what so brilliant about this country’s class system. Upper classes throw lower classes a bone that is just enough to keep them from the brink. Hence, one word of warning to the upper classes: keep throwing that bone. You do not want to paint your lower and middle classes into a corner where they have no choice, but to revolt. Give them jobs, healthcare if need be, or welfare checks. Or else you will be replaced.

I agree with you Alex. It is the “full belly and cable television” method of control. Cheap food and cheap entertainment. The question is, will the 5% push their advantage too far and kill the golden goose?

We need a r3volution.

can’t wait. i will be sneaking away at 11 for this one!

Full belly and cable TV. Maybe so. But statistically it only takes 2% of the population to cause civil unrest.

I think we’re getting closer all the time.

There seems to be no end to the greed-infested system we have ended up with. Our government is bought, the media is run more and more by big power, and the middle class keeps going down, and down, and down.

There will be a tipping point.

This wont happen. What most likely will happen is a martial law and a military coup, think Argentina in the 1976.

No nonviolent revolution until and unless we have a working, functioning online government (that is better than Congress of course). An online government doesn’t exist right now. I will help design one.

Roosevelt was elected in 32… relected in 36,40 and 44,

Franklin D. Roosevelt was elected president in 1932. The stock market crashed in 1929. I realize this book is fiction but should be historically accurate

Bruce Judson is right about 1928, this country was in turmoil.

Ashbrook can’t be serious, what about the Civil War?
What about the riots in the late 19th centuries?
Then we get to the Great Depression and we were moving towards Communism or Fascism.

It happened in Germany, Italy, Spain and Russia after WW1.

Does anyone at On Point do any research?

I wish he would stop saying ‘1928′; I think he means ‘1932′….

1.) Property has no rights; ‘property rights’ means ‘rights for people with property’. If not enough people have not enough property, their self-interest will not be consonant with respecting those rights.

2.) I’m cynical, perhaps, but I think that rather than blame the rich, people will blame the Usual Suspects: ‘welfare queens’, illegal immigrants, the poor in general, the queer, the ‘liberal intellectuals’ and ‘Hollywood’ (or ‘Jews and Judaisers’, to translate Pat Buchanan’s original German).

3.) To paraphrase: ‘When Fascism comes to America, it comes not in leather and jackboots, but wrapped in the Flag and carrying the Cross, and with the homey face of Will Rogers.’

Sorry the date is wrong, it was in the 30’s that the riots and upheaval happened.

We should also remember Huey Long of Louisiana, he became a huge problem for FDR and his idea of government anything but democratic.

The striking parallel to 1928 and the uncanny coincidence of things markedly changing in the 1980s – the Reagen/Bush years that led to the total unraveling of bank regulation…to me it just seems that the problem continues to be a lack of democracy. There are rules for the wealthy elite and then rules for the rest of us. Bottom line: the revolution that needs to take place is physical showing of how fed up 95% of the country is with powerful lobbyists, Wall Street, the Banking Industry and the wealthy elite who are running the country by paying for elected officials.

The revolution will happen because now in the world there are more hungry people than ever before, becuase WE, the american people, know all of what they say and do is an illusion, in their minds all that matters is the bottom line. They, coroporations who run the government facade, only care about how much money they can work out of us. WE must stop fighting amoungst our citizen comrades and realize who our true foes are and that we do not need them to feed us or give us permission to live in our homes anymore.

To prevent the possibility of Revolution, which would be insanely horrendous, what is needed is a reinvigoration of, and new role models and public speakers about, Pragmatism and Rational thought about our shared Reality. We have suffered greatly from the media driven ultra-partisan, left – right divide, that makes idealogical bullet points more important than understanding facts and how to make progress, as well as all the religious fundamentalist influence that has undermined rational thought and a scientific, realistic world view.

If we continue to ignore reality, and practical progress, then yes, perhaps we will suffer the hell of revolution… a Revolution based on nonsense, instead of progressive principles.

great show today. i have voted republican in past ,for reagan, bush. voted for obama for one reason-revolutionary change. we have a congress out of touch with middle class-they are mostly millionaires, with total health care. our country bails out millionare wall street,bankers, insurance agents, brokers, and the like while the middle class gets constantly screwed and the bill for it all. cant afford college. cant afford to keep our home. jobs outsourced to other countries while ceos make billions, illegals overrunning out borders and bankrupting our states schools, services, job maket…jefferson was right-we desperately need a upheavale revolution that drastiically changes our downwoard slope into chaos or the end of our nation

My friend and I have been having this discussion since Bush II was elected. Living here in Appalachia, you don’t have to look hard or far at all to see these inequality’s, since our area was becoming the playground of the wealthy. There will be a tipping point. I have been unemployed for 10 months, barely keeping a residence and my wife and son fed. Now we are being told that we will be REQUIRED to purchase insurance or face a fine?! We don’t have much, but we own what we have and I will not be legislated into keeping the wealthy on top. Period. Most people have a personal tipping point,what is yours?

My son and I was watching the HBO Series John Adams. In the series my son made the comment about in regards to how nobody really wanted to do anything but wanted everything done as far as obtaining our freedoms. It seems we have not changed in this day and age. There are very few people who are doing the work and we have a president who wants to move forward, and all he gets is roadblocks and criticizms, just like in the beginning of freedom. So my question is…are we on the brink of obtaining a new type of freedom? and my other question is if these issues are that important to us the regular citizen why aren’t we voting on them ourselves. aparently many of us are not happy with our representatives due to special interests groups etc. Why don’t we just hold special votes on these issues? Let us decide our fate!

I doubt that there will be a violent revolution. I can imagine a “silent revolution” which I think is occurring right now. However, a spontaneous voilent revolution seems implausible in a country where most people live in sprawling suburbs. I mean are people going to get together over the internet and then drive to someplace to riot? Traditionally, these riots, revolts, and revolutions gain traction in urban places where people gather informally in taverns, pubs, on the street corners, etc. I just don’t see that happening in Suburb, USA.

Tom, you said there has been no revolution since The Revolution. Does the Civil War not qualify as an attempt at revolution? What about the killed-aborning revolutions in the form of labor unrest in the 19th and 20th centuries? Was not the inequality described by your guest the common trigger for those events?
If there is another revolution, the trigger will not be increasing inequality, but increasing equality. Those revolting will not be triggered by income discrepancy but by the loss of perceived prestige as more and more poor whites recognize that they are losing their place, however low, in the power hierarchy. As James Carville termed them, “The Neo-Confederates” will be the group to be wary of.

after the financial turmoil last year and the inability of the government to regulate the financial institutions in the aftermath, i sadly have to say revolution is highly likely. on the other hand, americans tend to be quite “submissive” to the government and rich folks. almost every poor folks think they can reach that level some day… well, keep dreaming. it is quite healthy to dream.

lastly, everyone wants a peaceful revolution. don’t hold your breath. revolution is rarely peaceful.

Agree with Bob. Democracy is dead. Both parties are bought by special interest groups. We must ban lobbying and campaign donations by big organizations!

It is highly hypocritical and unjust that an ostensibly public radio program would feature a self-professed “ardent capitalist” and “successful entrempeneur” to discuss growing inequality and its possible consequences for America. Socialists and other left wing progressives have been writing about this for many years running, far beyond “sloganeering” .yet there voices are seldom if ever invited on to “public” radio. THe so-called free market caused this crisis. Why is it an article of faith on “public” radio?

Our country is founded on the Social Contract, and inherent in it is the right, even responsibility, of the citizenry to revolt against a government which fails to adequately protect the interests of its citizens. In 2009, we have become comfortable with hearing ourselves called “consumers” instead of “citizens”, itself a statement about our loss of contact with the reality of our system. Our populace gives the impression of a Farenheit 451-esque group of zombies tuned into the latest reality TV craze, but as your guest points out, removing comforts, adding fear, worry, and above all a sense of injustice to the mix is exactly what makes people put down the remote and pick up a pitchfork.

It has happened before, and whether it will again is not for me to predict. But it is not only possible, in certain circumstances it is our responsibilty to break down the failing government and remake it. That is what , “…by the people, for the people…” means.

Since this is a “Free-Market” system, the gov’t should have let the banks fail. It would have given us all a taste of just how bad things can get. Then we would be demanding genuine financial reform right now. We are just forestalling a true crisis along into the future.

Fantastic, overdue topic.

The flash point for civil unrest / war may have to

be a ‘perfect storm’ event: many contributors have

popped up already. Add a sprinkle of environmental

catastrophe (katrina style), some seasoning with

terrorism or new war (afghanistan style), and top it

off with a new colonial power (China, anyone?) and

it seems inevitable, yeah, almost (!) predictable.

“If the hurricane doesn’t get you, your neighbor will…”

Millions in hardship, with an elite making hundreds of millions, to billions!? It is barely comprehensible.

There is only 1 pie!! The Rich/Powerful have fooled us for a long time into thinking there is no pie, while they take bigger and bigger pieces.

There is a pie, and it is becoming apparent.

I always remember a quote from Thomas Jefferson “a little revolution now and then is a good thing” It needs to happen to weed out the bad parts of a government system. It helps to keep the Politian’s in check and to keep them in touch with the people whom they serve.
It doesn’t mean that it has to be a violate revolution. We need to vote out the career Politian’s that have held the positions too longer and no longer serve the people. The original purpose for people to serve in congress was to go to DC do the work for the people of the state and then go back to their private life “term limitations.”

I am a 45 year old woman from a small moderate state, the epitomy of stability and good sense, yet when a political fundraiser calls I always let them know how corrupt I believe politicians to be; at the beck and call of lobbyist, in the pocket of corporate interests. When they ask for my political party, I tell them I am a revolutionary.

Revolution is not inevitable, but if institutions and corporations think it’s impossible, they will run roughshod over the population and really force the issue.

When enough people are economically thrown under the bus, there will be a credit/debt revolution, in that throngs of graduates with huge student loans will be forced to default on their loans and give up on working altogether.

Many disgruntled youth with no prospects and huge debts may be driven to violence.

This is the headline right now on Huffingtonpost.com:

JPMorgan Posts $3.6 Billion In Earnings… WSJ: Pay At Financial Companies On Pace To Be HIGHER Than Before Crisis… Ordinary Workers Seeing Hours Slashed, Pay Cut…

This makes the blood boil.

The assumption is that the revolution would be left leaning. Historically populist swings have turned rightward and turned ugly. I would see any disturbance these days being directed at minorities especially immigrant workers. What about the possibility of revolition from the far right?

A logical flashpoint for revolt would be another election in which there was widespread belief that the outcome had been rigged. A revolt might not initially be against the government itself but would make itself evident in violence between polorized elements in society as there was between the communists and national socialists in Germany in the thirties. A revolt is less likely to result in a sweeping away of the government than a takeover of the government by extreme elements.

Very disappointing interview, Tom. You seem dismissive of the entire idea, much as George III was in 1776 or Louis XVI 1789…

The question is not whether the revolution could happen here. The problem is that the revolution could be brown. Worst than 1928 was 1933. While I write these words on the radio are talking about ‘gun anger’, soon we will hear about those ‘illegal immigrants who come to steal our work.’ There is increasing uemployment, but the rightwing demagogues – the Limbaughs and the Becks of this world – are working estra hours. Bingo! Someone is addressing my concenrs now.

Not to belabour the point, but Joy’s comment about two sets of rules, for the wealthy and for the rest of us, ties into my comment about property.

The word ‘privilege’ has its roots in ‘private law’; Americans greatly resent privilege. Since ‘property rights’ mean that those with more property can do more (for example, there is no right to free speech on someone else’s land, and you can be forcibly evicted therefrom), even if those rights are equitably enforced, if the few have enormous amounts of property and the many little, the result will look like privilege.

The greatest buffers against revolution in America?:
1.) The belief of the many that they have a fair chance to become one of the privileged.
2.) The ideology of personal responsibility that makes us prone to believe that if we’re suffering, it’s ‘all my fault’—supposedly, most out-of-work men during the Depression blamed themselves. (Taking personal responsibility is great, but the ideology America has built around it, including things like the false impression mentioned just now, and corporate executives’ _not_ taking it, is an evil construct.)

To what extent do you think that 1.) and 2.) still obtain?

To question the obvious tide of rage and entitlement in those duped by Wall Street’s manipulation of our financial system is just plain stupid. To say that we have a ’stable society’, where fascism or anarchy and violence are impossible, is simply sociologically, historically and psychologically naive. Great topic.

I would like to know if you guest thing that an end to the two party system in favor of a multi-party system might defuse this frustration.

Like the law losing legitimacy.. we have reason basic logic losing out. The currency of “leftist and socialist” is essentially the absurd sophistry of a nihilism that wants to be bought as “conservative”.

Because of Lee Atwater, Roger Ailes, and Karl Rove, these so called conservatives have become beholden to a class of unreasonable, vulgar class… of comic book constitutionalism

It’s not about reason and actual debate anymore, it’s about mining nebulous feeling, fear ..where some outrage is always the topic of the day… about the transference of anger about bailouts to the area of healthcare and raw emotion. Now The Republican party is lead by media clowns… now ironically a slave to the lower level lack of intelligence upon which it played since the 80s.

…………………The GOP knows nothing but to stroke volatility, the a historical sense of entitlement to onward and upward wealth.and thereby to turn rational debate into a three-ring circus. Problem is anything could happen, when people of all kinds are buying into these hollow labels..where the any basic thread of reasonable discourse dissolves into a scene where Glen Beck or Anne Coulter are inflated by huge market share. … and here is the vulnerability to demagoguery that should frighten anyone.

It is important to distinguish between RIOTS and REVOLUTION. When people are angry at inequality and vent that anger on each other, that is rioting. Revolution is the conscious, organized, deliberate and unified effort to completely change an entire social/economic system. If our system is not reformed, eventually it may be overthrown. But currently there is no coherent opposition because the underlying problem of inequitable distribution of wealth is not widely understood and a clear alternative has not been presented to middle-America.

I think Cory (10/14 0800 EDT) brings up an interesting point about cheap food and cheap entertainment. It sounds silly initially to make comparisons between ancient Rome and the modern U.S., but the Romans tried that. The plebes were getting out of line (partly because the upper class was using slave labor, putting them out of work, starving them), so the Romans built a Colosseum and started handing out free bred… well, they got dependent, and every time a grain shipment failed, and the expected bread didn’t arrive, they had riots. This continued to the extent that the Roman empire basically fell apart. Barbarian invaders basically just provided the coup de grace.

One has to wonder if we’re making some of the same mistakes.

~
I thought that I was the only one who has been thinking that this scenario was probable.

What the two guests discussed is absolutely terrifying to me.

The professor from North Carolina should be invited back.

~

What troubles me — in Judson and in many of the callers — the attitude “they’re doing it to us.” That’s not entirely untrue, but the way out is for us to realize that we help them do it to us. JPMorgan’s huge earnings rise announced early this morning? A disgrace. But also a blessing: my retirement depends in part on Morgan. We’re all, one way or another, components in the engine of our own potential downfall.

“Just pay attention.” Something to live by.

Not a chance. Revolutions happen when there is a class that has nothing to lose. Like those proverbial workers who have nothing to lose, except for their chains. America is populated mostly by people who’s got stuff to lose: houses, cars, mortgages, kids in school, supermarkets full of food, etc., etc. Riots may happen. A Revolution? I think not.

And by the way, what happened in 1770s and 1780s here was not a revolution at all. It was a colonial war for independence. It had different causes from those that are necessary for a social revolution and it had completely different consequences. Just because some people don’t like taxes will not lead to a revolution.

Here’s a scenario, people start beating up and killing the CEO’s of bank such as JP Morgan.

I was watching the Bill Moyers journal which had Rep. Marcy Kaptur (D-OH) on and she spoke how she was threatened by the CEO of the bank that owned most of the mortgages in her area of Ohio when she brought up that the bank was not working with the state in trying to solve the crisis. In here area of Toledo the foreclosure rate is approaching more than 90%! The CEO just said to her well our bank has 10 thousand jobs in your state. This was said as a threat, in that they would lay off these people if she and her fellow politicians would not play ball. She is urging her constituents to stay in there homes, in a sense squat in their own homes and defy the banks.

I urge everyone to watch this program which also has Simon Johnson on.

http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/10092009/profile.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VF_vU7WZpUE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r2z00CQLUdw&feature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeVY7JH_xVU&feature=related

Representative Kaptur is my kind of politician.
Unfortunately the only other politicians I can think of who are like her are Sanders if Vermont and Kucinich who is also from Ohio.

This subject deserves another hour or more of discussion.
We have not paid one cent toward the solution of the banking crisis. We have added to our credit card and shifted responsibility from share holders to taxpayers. The real challenge for our democracy comes as we attempt to make good on the promises we have already made.
The very word “the” government instead of “our” government is an indicator of our current direction.

In response to the comment above by Tom from DC that revolution (in whatever form) won’t happen because so many people live in suburbs: People in the suburbs are the middle class. They/we have been falling, in droves–pretty much for the first time in recent US history–into the hole that economically-lower-class/poor/disempowered people have ALWAYS lived in.
When someone or some group begins to focus the discontent and fear that is fed from so many directions now (housing, jobs, health, loss of a sense of firm foundation under American life) — there WILL be protest, and I think that people from the middle class will join. [Was there not violence in the 60s in protest about the war in Vietnam and about race/civil rights?]
My fantasy has been about having a million-person march on Wall Street, taking over corporate buildings, and scaring the hell out of the executives. [I'd go as far as tar-and feathering,or putting them in the stocks for a few days -- but not physical harm.:) ]
And when the heck did being a “consumer” become our required role — in the country’s life? Where’s the sense of dignity in that, compared with being a producer, and a citizen? Hmmm…how could that possibly have been engineered?… Perhaps by profit-hungry corporations who would happily push jobs overseas?…

Alex your right, France had a revolution, Russia had a revolution and China had one as well.

I don’t see a revolution, I see unrest and destitution.
Unrest will lead to martial law which will lead to a possible military coup or a coalition between the military and the civilian government to form a Argentine like junta complete with death squads.

Just witness the over militarization of the police in this country since 9/11. Small town police departments getting funds to have Swat teams and armored cars. I’m not trying to sound like a conspiracy theorist, but Bush did try to use the military to make arrest in New York. To think this can’t happen is a little naive.

I agree, a military coup or a dictatorship is a more likely scenario. There is going to be enough support for that because the country is ideologically divided and it would be easy for a dictator to play one part against the other.

Thank you so much for this riveting, horrifying hour. The body politic is being torn apart by Limbaugh, Beck and the other Fr. Coughlins of our day, and I am very concerned that class warfare is increasingly likely. One of my few causes for optimism is if Barney can use the Banking Committee’s clout to FORCE change by financial institutions, which obviously have learned nothing about the error of their ways in the past year. They must be forced to change or I’m convinced revolution will result.

The problem with those who are complaining about inequality is that the very people who are protesting high government spending are the most supportive of the portion of government spending that is most responsible for the national debt. Defense spending.

Between current defense spending and past defense obligations, defense eats up 54 percent of the budget. At least on paper. What is often not noted is that large percentages of the budgets of other government departments are also dedicated to defense spending. Fifty percent of NASA’s budget is dedicated to defense purposes. in some years almost 70 percent of the Department of Energy’s budget is dedicated to making fissile materials for nuclear weapons (cores need replacing from time to time).

If you exclude Social Security and Medicare, which both have dedicated taxes which pay the costs of these programs and even generate surpluses. And would keep them, except for the fact that the government borrows from them in order to finance government programs that should be running off of income tax revenues. Which are not large enough to even cover current defense spending.

When one takes current defense spending, past obligations (Veterans benefits and interest on the defense portion of the debt), plus the portions of other departmental budgets used for defense purposes, a full 80 percent of the national debt is due to spending on defense by borrowing, rather than raising revenues through income taxes, corporate taxes and tariffs.

Health reform will cost less than 90 billion dollars a year, which is ten billion less than it costs to provide Veterans benefits for 8 million Veterans. This is less than one quarter of the interests on the defense debt.

It was anticipated that the United States would see some “peace dividend” at the end of the Cold War. It never happened. Not because the need for defense had remained the same or increased, but because an industry which creates 6 percent of GDP is eating up 12 percent of GDP from the government spending that finances it. Economically defense spending is what economists would call “below equity” That is to say for every dollar spent on defense, 50 cents worth of economic stimulus is created. Defense is a losing proposition, especially when it is largely used overseas to protect corporate interests that keep their profits offshore and so never pay a cent towards the taxes that pay to defend those interests. To the average American, it makes no difference whether a nationalized Venezuelan petroleum industry sells us our gasoline, or an American owned private petroleum company sell us our oil. But a hidden cost of the military forces in the Middle East as well as the need to protect the sea lanes over which that oil is shipped exists in every barrel of oil. And it is totally unnecessary. It exists only to protect the wealth of a few very wealthy Americans, for an industry that takes more out of the total economy than it puts into it, and which does not create a huge amount of jobs in the United States, so not much tax revenues come from employees in that industry and large number of Americans working for those industries work overseas, making that income nontaxable. The simplest solution would be to allow those nations to nationalize their petroleum and buy it from them on the “free market” Taxes could be significantly lowered by doing this or finding alternative sources of energy.

Jimmy Carter was ridiculed for what became known as the malaise speech. Carter predicted virtually everything that has occurred in the international arena with regard to petroleum and the Middle East. His answer to avoid the problems that petroleum and Middle Eastern involvement would cause was to return to an earlier American quality. Self reliance. It might take sacrifice for a while, but it would be better for America to be self reliant than to rely on the resources of other nations, which would require ever greater expenditures on maintaining a defense posture to control those regions. The cost of defense with regards to the Middle East over the last three decades since Carter made that speech have been staggering compared to all other government spending. Obama’s spending and his ideas for health reform are a pittance by comparison.

These who are “rebelling” against government spending would do best to look in the mirror. It is their own ideas about “national defense” and the fact that any politician who dares to even suggest that the defense policy may be getting out of hand will be immediately assailed with cries of being “soft on defense” that is responsible for the current economic mess. Throwing money at the military is never looked at askance.

89 billion dollars a year. This will insure every American and will lower the deficit over the long run. It will also keep the increases in the cost of health care at the same level as inflation by all estimates because the largest factor in those increases is not the cost of new technology because new technologies reduce in cost as they get older, or should, as well as reduce the overall cost of health care by requiring less invasive treatments as well as shorter periods of time being treated as well as shorter periods of recovery. Overall new technologies and better drugs reduce the cost of health care over time, they do not increase it.

The single factor that drives the cost of health care higher than the rate of inflation is the increasing cost of health insurance premiums, for the sole purpose of profits for the private health insurance companies.

The current reform bill does very little that is new. which is why the cost is really so low compared to the overall 2.5 trillion dollars spend on health care every year. 89 billion a year out of 2.5 trillion is really a very small percentage. Where the real cost increases are is in the same place the problems that occurred in the housing market in the last year. Executive salaries, executive bonuses, stock options and shareholder dividends. In companies that do nothing that actually directly provides health care to a single American or treats a single patient. They do not even do anything with regard to medical research. The government pays for the bulk of that. In 2005 during the political arguments leading to Medicare Part D, it was discovered that out of the 21 most expensive new drugs on the market fifteen were developed totally with government research grant money. In fact sixty percent of ALL government grant money is given to the Department of Health and Human Services and distributed to well over 100,000 different researchers in over 300 different kinds of grants. The American people are already paying large amounts of money for the research that the pharmaceutical companies and other health care providers benefit from. The most ironic thing of all is that a lot of medical research money is paid for out of Medicare Part A.

If there is rebellion in the air, if there is inequity its not in the social service end of government spending. Its somewhere else entirely. It was what President Eisenhower was warning about when he spoke of the “Military Industrial Complex” which would always manufacture the threats that allowed them to eat up larger and larger percentages of the government budget.

Carter urged self reliance and a defense budget that could be paid for without borrowing.

Unfortunately the man who ran against him and won promised we could have it all by paying less in taxes, and borrowing our way to prosperity and single superpower status.

The time to pay the piper is overdue, and its not social spending that is going to have to be closely examined

Those with privilege and power have historically usually been able to convince those who are angry because they have neither to turn that anger inward or toward others in that same predicament. These folks have successfully blamed illegal immigrants, welfare mothers, pushy Jews, lazy Hispanics, entitled Blacks, unruly Irish…it’s a long list of scapegoats. Shame on us for buying these falsehoods. And by the way, on the other side of the coin, who with any authority to say so challenges the oft-trotted-out “truism” that Wall Street Banks and Corporations have to give large bonuses to keep such fine talent on board or it will go elsewhere. It’s just that kind of talent and expertise has run our economy into the ground, that threatens the “general welfare.”

I really don’t like what I see for the future but is it realistic to expect American wages and standards of living to keep increasing decade after decade on the global platform?

Tom, thanks for your excellent work! The astrological indicators, notably Pluto’s arrival in Capricorn, are eerily similar to those leading up to the First American Revolution. From King George to George Bush, from “taxation without representation” to bailouts; it will be no surprise to this astrologer when the revolution comes.In fact, I’ve already predicted it in writing!

Eric Linter, Astrologer
Norfolk, MA

Revolutions happen when a class doesn’t have anything left to lose? It seems to me that revolutions, at least successful ones, are actually instigated and organized by groups of some privilege. The lower classes become involved by necessity perhaps, since from the revolutionary standpoint “there are no innocents,” forcing as total inclusion as possible in choosing sides. It’s very romantic to think of revolution in a way that says “the sympathetic oppressed are going to defeat the hateful oppressors.” It’s idealistic, in fact, which is probably what makes it a necessary assumption for convincing the under-privileged. But the nature of power does not change. Revolution means always returning to the same points, good and bad, over and over again.

FIRST, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BRINGING THIS TOPIC OUT INTO THE OPEN! NOBODY BUT NPR (or possibly Air America) WOULD HAVE THE INDEPENDENCE TO DO THIS – AND SO REASONABLY!

Regarding some of the comments:

Voting no longer carries the power to achieve REAL change in the system. The two-party arrangement is such that all visible candidates are beholden to the powers that be – resulting in, effectively, a Corporatocracy. How to fix it? Almost impossible.

Ban lobbying and contributions by the big
corporations? Who is going to vote in such
a ban? The vast majority who depend on those
fat cats so they can run for office?

Public financing? Piddling amounts of money,
compared with that available from those sitting
on 2/3 or more of the country’s wealth. Consider
how many candidates have REFUSED public financing
because of the restrictions on it.

Kim Bailey is right on target about the need
for a multi-party system – the problem is,
how to get there? When I mentioned “visible”
candidates, I was being literal. Third party
people get NO attention, press, or even a chance
to express their views in debates.

The truth is, we started to lose our democracy
when the airwaves were turned over to profit-making
corporations to control and from which to make
money. (One reason why NPR is so precious).

Why do public officials need to grovel for
handouts from the fat cats? Because they need
to spend millions of dollars to buy air time -
the same air time that started out as the
property of the public!

How to get it back? I think the only often
working part of our government is the judicial
system. I’d love to see somebody sue to get
the TV honchos to relinquish SIGNIFICANT air
time during election prequels for open debate
amongst ALL candidates running for office.

A large number of Americans didn’t even know
that Ralph Nader was running. And, by the way,
an opportunity was lost then, to open the door
to multi-party, true Democracy. Ralph could
have bargained with the Dems to support instant
runoff voting (IRV), in exchange for his exit
from the race.

IRV could balance the scales – it allows folks
to pick their first, second and third choices.
If #1 goes down, the vote automatically goes
to number 2 and so forth. How many people might
have voted for Nader, if they weren’t “wasting”
their vote? For Dennis Kucinich?

I may seem a bit off-topic – but not really.
Equality and people power come from a system
with a truly open and democratic electoral
system, with many voices and places at the
table. Other countries, sadly, have surpassed
us in this, with their multiple parties engaging
in real debates representing all opinions.

I thought electing Obama was supposed to be a revolution. Instead it’s turned into a big cluster-f. I don’t think Americans can accomplish anything approaching a revolution, inertia is too powerful.

“It seems to me that revolutions, at least successful ones, are actually instigated and organized by groups of some privilege.”

Groups of privilege play huge role in revolutions in that they timely recognize that revolutionary conditions are ripe and take the lead in organization, creating the ideology, and directing the masses. Intellectuals take initiative when the time is right, but they do not create the conditions nor are they the main force behind the overthrowing the old ruling class. It is still those oppressed masses who make revolutions.

Point taken, Alex, but if it’s the privileged that “lead in organization, creating the ideology, and directing the masses,” I have to wonder whose revolution it really is. My point was precisely that the oppressed masses are necessarily the ones who are needed by the privileged to “make revolutions,” for better or worse. I don’t see that this contradicts your statement, although it might be a rather cynical interpretation of the situation.

The knocking down of american wage earner compensation has been going on for some time. This has been done with the full awareness and consent of political, religious, and business leaders. This is part of the globization process. It is painful to the extreme but an unfortunate continuation of the exploitation of the working class worldwide. Rather than lift everyone up the uberclass would rather bring them and keep them down. As for revolution in america, why? Even at this level of distress and dismal economic outlook, americans are generally so much better off than people in so many other countries it’s laughable. Better we start taking care of business here in our own country and reinvigorate the work ethic, innovation and indiviualism that made us great. Right now we are the worlds’ mercenary and paying our way with blood. To paraphrase Abraham Lincoln, “As a nation of free men, we must live through all time. If destruction be our lot, we, ourselves, must be its’ author and its’ finisher and die by suicide.”

Well, it is not the entire privileged class that usually leads a revolution. It usually a few talented smart representatives from the same that do that. Like Lenin, who was a lawyer and a son of a petty nobleman. Or those French bloodthirsty revolutionary intellectuals.

As for who creates the conditions, I dare say everyone does…

Alex: I never said it was the entire privileged class, and I apologize if I seemed to suggest it. There are numerous factions of privilege, just as there are numerous factions of poor, middle-class, etc. This is a problem with equating revolution solely to class struggle in the first place, as countless factors play roles in revolution (or in any great philosophical movement). My major concern is with the nature of power, and my guiding motive behind my comments is simply a suggestion of caution and critical thought.

From above:

“financial institutions, which obviously have learned nothing about the error of their ways….”

and

“This is the headline right now on Huffingtonpost.com:
JPMorgan Posts $3.6 Billion In Earnings… WSJ: Pay At Financial Companies On Pace To Be HIGHER Than Before Crisis… Ordinary Workers Seeing Hours Slashed, Pay Cut…”

What is the ‘error of bankers ways’? No error there. They are learning that crime pays. We voters-citizens-consumers are not learning the error of our ways…it is up to us to protect ourselves and hold them accountable.

How to? THIS is where our debate needs to take place. And I pray that it will be a rational and well-intentioned one…violence, yelling and riot will not solve that problem. Jail for thieves has always been a good starting point….

This guys voice alone makes me want to start a revolution. GAWD; Yip, Yip, Yip!

Excellent show,
I agree that it is not a question of if there will be a revolution…simply when. That said I doubt it will be a revolution in the traditional form. All that is needed to change this course and save this great nation is a few precisely targeted attacks on some top CEO’s and executives of Goldman Sachs, AIG, Citigroup, and select others occurs.It is their money and greed that drives our government, both republican and democrat. When there blood is shed the rest of the neo-cons will see just how vulnerable they are and the country will be restored as a decocracy, not the plutocracy they have achieved these past 40 years. They think nothing of shedding the blood of hundreds of thousands of lives with their manufactured wars for “democracy”. Shedding a few dozen lives would not only change the future of our nation, but greatly improve the fate of nations throughout the globe!
As Guy Fowkse so eloquently said.” People should not fear their government….Governments should fear the people” it’s time to recreate that ideology….

Dear Liberty G you are right @ the airwaves being hijacked by private corps but NPR as “precious”? Really? yes, it should be but doesn’t a daily dose of Morn.ed. ATC WESAT and WESUN suggest to you that “public’ radio rarely reflects the public interest these days? Notice war-fevered the coverage of Afghanistan and Iraq is? Cpmromised would be more accurate than precious, I’m afraid.

Hang on, I need to adjust my aluminum foil hat real quick. I suggest Bruce Judson do the same.

A very good show. But I noticed that Tom sounded disappointed that his second guest did not provide opposition. Whoops, you mean “balance”. What a nice word balance is. Maybe NPR thinks this show lacked balance because they couldn’t find some right wing lackey to come on the show and go on about bootstraps and rising tides. I think the balance on this show was just fine.

patrick,
so, your “plan” is to murder or maim a few in the top CEO positions so then “neo-cons” will become fearful and democracy will be restored!
…that medication is supposed to be taken consistently to work properly!

Lennon: ’say, you want a revolution? we’d all love to see the plan!’ Of course, he said PLAN not crazy talk.

It’s hard to take your guest too seriously when he repeatedly states FDR was elected President in 1928. I would think, being NPR, you would be all too happy to place the blame for the stock market crash of 1929 squarely on the Republican President, Herbert Hoover.

I agree, we need a revolution! In 2012, let’s do our civic duty and go to the polls and vote that wannabe marxist Barack Obama out of office. That’s the “hope and change” that I’m praying to the Good Lord for.

“I would think, being NPR, you would be all too happy to place the blame for the stock market crash of 1929 squarely on the Republican President, Herbert Hoover.”

Well, it is a fact that the Great Depression started after eight years of Republicans in the White House. Kind of like this current economic crisis or the one that beset this country in the early 90s. I am no economist to assign blame for economic failures, but I mean, after a while you start to see a pattern.

NPR has no problem coming up with left wing wackies though, right dave b. There just not wackies cuz you agree with everything they say. Boring!

I will say this: I believe this show would have triple or quadruple the number of comments if the topic weren’t so seriously resident in the undercurrent of almost every American’s daily lives right now. It’s admirable that On Point gave this topic a go, but the truth of the matter is: there has been talk on the street–and incredibly widely spread talk–for a couple of years now. What, you really thought the popularity of Zombie’s in pop-culture and online wasn’t a code word for this? Sadly, were it to go down, nobody would truly benefit, but I do give some credence to the fact that it might already be too late. Everyone has been talking about this around the dinner table for months at the very least. The lack of comments, and depth of comment, shown here should tell you one thing: People’s hearts are hardening, they don’t want to talk about it, because they have already accepted in many ways that it’s coming no matter what. They aren’t commenting, they’re stocking up. Sad days for the US. Here’s to hoping for a miracle, but none of us expect one really, do we?

One additional little note: Those that call “Tin Foil Hat;” that’s been the standard response for years to this kind of subject matter. Just remember, if you take a point of view long enough, it will eventually become reality. Thus far, it has been “Tin Foil Hat” talk, but in the light of the following realities:

-Gun and Ammo Sales
-Gold going through the roof
-Open discussion on the national airwaves, backed by respected programs, and credentialed scholars
-Open discussion in your own families, where it would have never come up as a serious subject in the recent past

One has to wonder if realities are changing. I wonder if anyone has done studies on bulk food, camping supplies, and disposable paper products? That would be interesting to see. I know that the FBI, and US Military have been not only studying these contingents, but doing exercises based upon their potential occurrence like never before. Personally I do view the likelihood of Military Coup based upon some civil emergency being the most likely route, should this all happen. Remember, the Gov’t is not a unified thing. It is a collection of infighting fiefdoms, that sometimes are forced to cooperate to keep up appearances, and the US Military is mad as hell at the current administration, and they’re the ones with the big guns. Obama ignores them at his own peril. One person on the show alluded to assassination. Obama rolls with 3x the number of Secret Service that any other American President ever has. If he gets zapped, it won’t be some “Bubba” Lone Wolf with a chip on his shoulder. It will be an inside job, because “Bubba” wouldn’t get within two miles of him, ever!

Tom, thanks for having this author on today. But I do not thank you for once again shutting down speakers (guests or callers) mid-point with a “break” inevitably coming back with someone else.

I realized your negative attitude when you expressed dismay and surprise as you said to the second guest you had thought he would oppose the guest author’s views. You kept trying to set up the author for ridicule or denial, but callers and your second guest pretty much validated the author every time.

Sorry but your conservative bias showed again today. Who are you pandering to?

By the way, I was laughed out of a seminar at Harvard when I mentioned this to a faculty panel about ten years ago. This topic is anxiety provoking. But history is instructive only for those who read it and believe that it applies to all — even us. The land of the free will continue only if we are brave enough to face and deal with the truth to preserve the common good and our democratic way of life.

So this is why I ask you to not sell out to the rich and powerful who would like the media to continue to protect their interests.

Come again-what was President Roosevelt doing in 1928?

It may not lead to revolution but I think that current economic upheaval could result in a permanent class shifts that will upset any existing balance.

You’ve got 15 to 20 million people unemployed – and the financial economy is turning up. Stock prices have been low, giving an opportunity for the employed to add to their portfolios. Mortgage rates have gone done, again for those employed to purchase or re-finance. [Even if you own credit-worthy income property, new rules require a job to get a mortgage].

Now stock prices are heading up. Mortgage rates are likely to head up. Housing prices look like they are beginning to increase.

Many of the 10%+ unemployed will come out of this behind the eight ball. They will be in debt at higher interest rates. They will rebuild their portfolios at higher prices. Their options will be circumscribed.

Does this create a new lower middle class? A new upper poorer class? Missing this uptick is likely to be a permanent set-back for many who have been unemployed.

When enough people who had something to lose lose it, they will get mad enough to act. They will have no stake in or loyalty to the system that stole their earnings. That is happening now. On the political right, people blame “the liberals,” whom they see as a cultural and economic elite (“limousine liberals”). On the political left, people blame “the right wingers,” whom they see as an economic elite.

This revolution may play out more like a civil war–us against us–rather than us against them.

“One additional little note: Those that call “Tin Foil Hat;” that’s been the standard response for years to this kind of subject matter. Just remember, if you take a point of view long enough, it will eventually become reality. Thus far, it has been “Tin Foil Hat” talk, but in the light of the following realities:

-Gun and Ammo Sales
-Gold going through the roof
-Open discussion on the national airwaves, backed by respected programs, and credentialed scholars
-Open discussion in your own families, where it would have never come up as a serious subject in the recent past”

Guns and ammo sales went up due to fear of socialism and obama being a Muslims spread by fox news and right-wing bloggers not as you present of corporate interest and corporate greed,

(Kind of dishonest to state that while leaving out these key reasons. Also The right rails against the government that is not dominated or in control sharing their views and gives a dirty look towards wall street but still push for deregulations and not cutting CEO and top brass pay(which something that would curve such anger)and often the same companies that abused the people as the solution, as for the left it rails against big corporations and sees the government as the solutions but has to much influences from the corporate world. Also many people are dividend as to the reason why their pissed and would side with the government before a fringe radical.

This right here would prevent any such physical revolutions from occurring since either side would not be uniformed in there objections and way things should occur or be.

As for the ones promoting it most likly be polarizing/ideology figures further reducing the support for such.

Also to note for a revolution to happen neighbors, friends, families would have to become your enemy since many will still support the government, even further reducing your support, if one used physical force for this revolution once that father, son, daughter, sister dies or is hurt by these revolutionist will further reduce its legitimize, and if it could win it would have broken much of our constitution and laws and would have to be a form of dictatorship to not be caught,tied , or prosecuted for the crimes they would have to commit to do so. establishing people not democratically elected to run things.

also the civil war occurred and the dissenters ended up getting the crapped kicked out of them and that was half a nation not including many of the other groups we have today.

If you want things changed come up with better ideas that help all Americans, yelling like dogs foaming at the mouth does get press but in the end will turn the majority against you since hated, intolerance will follow.

But the show was interesting and funny that in his story someone would sink as low as a terrorist to push there agenda.aren’t we fighting in Afghanistan against this? and telling them democracy is the answer.?

Interesting topic, but I won’t be buying Mr. Judson’s book (for someone at YALE to get FDR’s first term in office incorrect cannot be simple nervousness at being on live radio, can it? he said it at least twice, I think I heard).
I heard almost all of the show: but never any mention of the complicity of Americans in fostering all of this “inequality” we’re supposed to be suffering from. Not one mention of all of our existing “cults of celebrity”: the scads and scads of musicians, actors, comedians, celebrities, sports stars, media stars, entertainers who bring in salaries more than many a corporate CEO. These “transfers of wealth” are all voluntary, people paying good money for lousy entertainment, or information, or music, with the occasional worthwhile performance. Who pays for all this music culture we “HAVE” to buy into? who pays for all the DVDs and DVD players we “HAVE” to play “our” stories on? who pays for the commercial support that pays a Letterman his salary (and is he worth it? [he may need it soon enough, but that's another story])? whose ticket sales and merchandise sales pay for which professional athletes’ multimillion dollar salaries? and who pays the broadcast right fees, and for whom, exactly?
Americans are no one’s dupes but their own.
All of that said: just wait until next year, when all these many millions of unemployed people no longer will be receiving unemployment benefits. –I’m reading Burke’s “Reflections on the Revolution in France” these days and recently saw Wajda’s “Danton” just for good measure; I’m no fan of revolution and cannot seriously expect one in this country. But civil unrest? Get ready for plenty, and don’t expect it to be pretty. (Neither Judson nor Goodwyn mentioned the Bonus March on DC, that I heard.)

I am a daily fan of your show. This has been one of the most profound. Perhaps not what we wanted to hear but we can not keep our collective poor heads in the sand. How can the content of this show be made more widely available.
I am reminded of the wonderful black and white movie, The Grapes of Wrath, steal the farm from the homesteader and sell it to the rich for a few cents then hire the person who previously owned the farm as a slave to the new owner….
Tom, this is not good, but this show was a real eye opener. I knew all of this material in my gut, but felt too crazy to speak it out loud….
Thank you againg

Astounding.

The introduction to the show, “Capitalist Bruce Judson”, did not sound too promising but his income inequality and housing foreclosure analysis and his proposed mark to market mortgage solution to the current banking crisis based on accepted accounting principals is right on. And although you, Tom, had expected Lawrence Goodwin to be a foil his comments only added breadth to Judson’s perspective.

My concern, as expressed by callers, is that we are headed towards a Weimar Republic scenario based on the naivety and optimism of Obama and the liberal establishment.

The reality is that the American working people are not complacent; they simply lack a belief that anything they do in the realm of politics will make any difference, and they are afraid.

As for their political views, the politicians are far, far out of line with the people, who have lost their belief in the political system, and whose passivity comes from hopelessness and fear. Most of the “left wing” of the Democratic party is not as far left as the people!

Two different political websites on the theme of “rate your candidates” asked respondents to define their views on a variety of issues and then matched those views against those of *all* the other candidates in the primaries, Republican and Democratic. Both surveys returned the startling result that a substantial majority of the voters lined up with that kooky, irrelevant fringe candidate, Dennis Kucinich, whom the press never tired of calling a spoiler (when they mentioned him at all)! The bar-graphs of these results were so lop-sided as to be astonishing.

One of the ideological barriers to the American people finding our strength and reclaiming our country – reflected very much in this discussion – is the belief that our own revolution was a war, organized as a conspiracy by gentlemen in powdered wigs, who rallied and turned loose the “peasants with pitchforks”. This is the myth taught in our schools, the myth used by the tea-baggers and militia movements to claim the heritage of the revolution as their own.

The reality, uncovered by Ray Raphael as he poked around in the town hall records and from collected correspondence of contemporaries, is quite to the contrary. His book “The First American Revolution, the Worcester Revolution of 1774″ reveals a profoundly democratic, non-violent, fairly rational revolutionary process wherein an entire population, beset by debts and frightened and outraged by the abolition by Parliament of all local control over their courts, engaged in an intense and protracted conversation about what to do, and then acted together to reclaim their country and force the British court officials to retire to Boston. The war that began in 1775 resulted from a British attempt to reconquer a colony they had already lost, starting with an attack on our provisional capital in Concord.

This book is must reading for anyone who wants to rid their mind of a lot of disempowering clap-trap about revolutions, and anyone who wants to understand who we are as a people, how we got where we are, and what is possible for us.

The Real Revolution?

I can’t possibly see how a revolution could occur in a country that is as politically divided as the United States is today. There’s no common ground for a revolution to really gain momentum and if one side were to let loose, the other would capitalize on it and use it to consolidate power. While this country is currently led by the Progressives, the nation as a whole is not particularly left leaning. Alas, the ultra partisan left/right divide that the media sells us is the true population control: division = weakness.

Two comments:

First, President Theodore Roosevelt broke up the monopolies, because he feared that, if he did not act, the anarchy brewing in Europe would soon spread here.

Second, it was, as I recall, about six months after his retirement that Alan Greenspan said (I am paraphrasing) that if the disparity of wealth in the U.S. continued to accelerate, he did not think democratic capitalism could survive.

Was anyone listening?

First off, thank you for having a dangerously relevant show today with Bruce Judson!

But my immediate reaction to the show, and the reason I no longer even consider contributing to WBUR, is that I want to heap SHAME on the likes of Tom Ashbrook for apparently being a bought and paid for flunky of the ruling elite behind the station’s large corporate contributors.

Back in April, I listened to Prof. David Ray Griffin speaking at Morse Auditorium at BU. Was WBUR there? Heavens no. Too HOT for them to handle it seems.

Last Sunday, I sat in the First Parish Church in Harvard Square and listened for three hours to Richard Gage. Was WBUR there? If they were, they were certainly in stealth mode.

If a Tom Ashbrook had decided to have enough guts and integrity to at least look at and publicly discuss the possible validity of the material in just the following two very recent papers, a long overdue healing process might have started months ago, and many lives and more to come would have been, and will be, saved.

I hate to hark back to it in some way, but what if just ONE FATHER of one of the abused kids had gender adjusted an abusing priest decades earlier before the Boston Globe broke the story? Perhaps he might still be in jail, but how many children would have been spared the horrible experiences they suffered, and the church would have been spared what vast amounts of money they have now had to pay?

Don’t hide it and hope it will go away – get it out in the sunshine.

I don’t think it is valid to withhold the truth because the reaction might be too violent. The general public is now VERY aware of a lot of this material and is wondering who will break the dam. I am sure we can handle it! What we can’t handle much longer is the pretending the evidence isn’t there, WHEN IT IS!

And those in the press and government that behave responsibly and with integrity will earn our trust, and those that have been treating us as stupid peons to be lied to and amused and titilated by the garbage corporate media wastes our airwaves delivering, deserve to lose any respect and most certainly their too well paying jobs.

Having used the airwaves to inflict NLP and CIA’s MKULTRA class technology on the public is just so un-American and WRONG, and yet it is now happening routinely.

Forget all the “they are kooks” you have been brainwashed into immediately assuming, and consider then that the following two papers are by scientists with excellent credentials, and none of the monetary incentives the spin-doctors and “they are kooks” perveyors enjoy. They are patriots with INTEGRITY and know well that sticking their necks out may not be painless, but do it they must.

Where is this class of patriot in our apparently feckless press?

This recently published PEER REVIEWED journal paper is by a quite impresive global team – click the download button at this URL to get the PDF that also includes some amazing micro photographs worth seeing even if you don’t read much of the paper:

http://www.bentham-open.org/pages/content.php?TOCPJ/2009/00000002/00000001/7TOCPJ.SGM

And this is by the the former UL lab manager who is also one of the authors of the above paper. NB that over half of the paper is the extensive and damningly relevant list of references at the end. Check the references yourself! And then follow the trail.

http://www.journalof911studies.com/volume/2008/Ryan_NIST_and_Nano-1.pdf

I am finally at the bottom of this long list of comments. My take on this is that those who think the ideas in the program are wow producing or from Pluto speak from inside the bubble. Get used to what will be a new word for many: _rentier_. Rentiers live off of rents and interests. They are most of your Hollywood favorites, grandmas invested in things the Beardstown ladies told them about and the son and daughters of Sam Walton. Rentiers. They do not feel the sting and they think dividends in the stock market are swell.

The rentier society will come under threat only with a currency meltdown. And this is no tri-corner tin foil
hat screed. Kevin Phillips shows repeatedly that US is not like the Roman Empire. What it is like is the empires which followed. Even with no revolution, those societies retreat into another place in history when their source of income (tulips, gold, big industry) get usurped by another power.

Where is Kevin Phillips in these interview programs?

Term limits-no more than 3 terms total in the House and Senate. Only two terms consecutive. Continuity lies
within Civil Service and make unionization of Federal
Workers illegal.
Let’s start there…

Judson’s comments were insightful, but why did you include this clown, Goodwyn? The Tea Party movement is by no means orchestrated. This is genuine anger that is being expressed by those who have played by the rules against a government spending regimen that is insane and sure to leave future generations of Americans in penury. We are not rascists as this knucklehead implied. We are begging non-whites to join us. We are people with traditional American values who believe in God, personal responsibility, the rule of law, and our Bill of Rights. The left-leaning Mainstream Media is purposely distorting the Tea Party movement, and Goodwyn has just regurgitated the talking points. Isn’t that what this is really all about: not inequality, not the recession, but the fact that we have just watched a rabble rousing demagogue and his gang of Chicago thugs baffle the pampered and protected denizens of the Ivory Towers (like Goodwyn), seize power, and began to take our great country apart at the seams?

Judson’s comments were insightful, but I cannot say the same for Professor Goodwyn? The Tea Party movement is by no means orchestrated. This is genuine anger that is being expressed by those who have played by the rules against a government rewarding those who did not through a spending regimen that is insane and sure to leave future generations of Americans in penury. We are not rascists as Mr. Goodwyn implied. We are begging non-whites to join us. We are people with traditional American values who believe in God, personal responsibility, the rule of law, and our Bill of Rights. The left-leaning Mainstream Media is purposely distorting the Tea Party movement, and Goodwyn has just regurgitated their talking points. Isn’t that what this is really all about: not inequality, not the recession (periodic recessions are a fact of life), but the fact that we have just watched a rabble rousing demagogue and his gang of Chicago thugs baffle the pampered and protected denizens of the Ivory Towers, seize power, and begin to take our great country apart at the seams?

I should have added what I was really thinking as I finished my post above.

I’m very heartened by this show, and really hope it at long last indicates that Tom is waking up and is prepared to join the world most of us are in.

I also hope this is a first step that will be followed by others and others that not too gradually takes any complacent head-in-sanders needing feel-good broadcasting in the station’s audience and brings them along, rather than loses or worse needlessly rudely alienates them, and gets them to where they can look clearly at what has happened and is happening and in time grow a bullet proof armor against the mind control practiced daily on us by most of the corporate media INCLUDING “public” radio.

In less that a month, not only the hard science behind the NANO-Thermite but also even the ghastly implications that become quite real when one realizes how VERY few major power advanced government labs (and perhaps a few select contractors) there are that are capable of producing any, let alone the required TONS of this material (that pretty clearly could only have been PRE-PLACED or “applied” in some high tech fashion) should be easily and intelligently discussed without our having to suffer with Tom’s traditional inflicting of his strangely tinted glasses view of the world on us or the implicit and rude but un-uttered “you are stupid” he zaps his callers and even his guests with.

He simply has to realize he really isn’t always as savvy as he thinks he is. You can still be a great host and have some reasonable humility. I hope he is a lot more that a practicing puppet for some mega-power interests behind the scenes.

Although the WBUR station manager once mumbled something about Amy Goodman being a bit too much for his listeners, WBUR could and should start being a really effective force for relevant education and change, and then Amy Goodman might be acceptable and a good replacement for some of their lesser shows, but not even close to being as potent as the listeners could handle.

Oh well, I can dream.

Anyway, and again, I hope this is the start of a new trend, not a Whoopsy-Accident never to be repeated.

The FCC needs to hear loud and clear that most stations, and that includes public stations, are shirking their Fourth Estate duty to provide necessary checks and balances as other elements in our civilization wander out of control.

The failed welfare programs have created this problem.

I was disturbed by Barton’s comments directed to Tom. Although he softened them in his second message.

I personally think that, given the constraints under which Tom and other journalists today operate, he has displayed great courage and integrity to present this show at all!

To seemingly blame him for all the flaws and weaknesses of journalism and government in this country is absurd and wrong.

Let me repeat my tremendous gratitude for Tom – and other fine NPR hosts, who are often the only ones putting forth anything close to truth in today’s media!

This and the previous hour (“The Obama Scorecard”) have common threads. We need to consider the state of the general population as a factor. In no particular order of priority, I would observe the following:

First, roughly one-half of eligible citizens do not vote. Regardless of their reasons, they have simply removed themselves from the life of the republic. If we wish to strengthen the republic, we must encourage participation by more citizens.

Second, since whining and complaining replaced baseball as the Great American Past Time, we have heard an increase in the din and a lowering of standards of civil discourse. If we are to address the content of the problems we face, we must call for an improvement in the process by which we address them. Talk radio blabbers of any political stripe are a significant part of the problem. (This last comment decidedly excludes Mr. Ashbrook and “On Point,” an oasis of sense and decency in the desert of the FM band.)

Third, A large percentage of the population is so fat and lethargic one cannot imagine them straying from their couches and bags of potato chips. One might speculate that the only “call to action” this segment of the citizenry would heed would be the dinger on the microwave.

Fourth, the Founding Fathers understood that an (uncapitalized) republican revolution results in a stable government and self-sacrifice to attain that goal. Thus, not only did they put their lives and fortunes on the line, but between 1776 and 1787, they drafted major works of political thought, culminating in the Constitution of the United States, the rule of law. The contemporary “tea party” crowd hardly compares to such giants as Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Franklin and company. Revolution is made by courageous visionaries, not juvenile clowns. The last time we heard such puerile brouhaha about revolution was in the fabled Sixties. It was noise then, and it is noise now.

I think the author confuses revolution with mob lawlessness. For those of us who are mature and honorable citizens, the objectives must be to honor the rule of law and to seek pragmatic decisions in whatever arena we find ourselves. Talk is cheap.

Well said, Alan! Many who think of themselves as mad enough to not take it anymore do not evaluate their own lifestyles. Voting is done at the polls, but also it is done by where you plunk down your dollar and how you live your life in terms of consumption and active involvement.

The changes that began to occur in the ’60’s (civil rights movement, women’s movement, GLBT rights movement, environmental movement, and so on) are still evolving, not by riots in the streets, armed militias, or dropping out from every aspect of society but by participating fully in every aspect of society.

True empowerment is not lawlessness but confidence in knowing one can get involved and make a little bit of a difference.

Most people I know do not want to sacrifice anything or be inconvenienced in any way.

I am so happy that someone is finally talking about this! I think we all (us “regular” citizens) are fed up with our lack of economic progress, especially in comparison to the gains made by the super-rich (JPMC 3.6m? 23b bonuses with our tax dollars this year, are you $@!#%^ kidding me?).

Ok, everyone, now what should we *do*? Let’s flex our collective muscle!! Shall we declare a holiday on credit card use? Shall we withdraw our money from BOfA and put it in our local credit union to show big banks we won’t take their ridiculous (and usually hidden) fees and penalties? Let’s hit ‘em where it hurts …peacefully. Rich corporate lobbyists ARE the only one with influence over Washington. Let’s face thta. So, let’s force the lobbyists to work for us.

Now, what should we lobby for? I’m sure the list is long and better populated by other, better informed people than me but a few ideas… an end to preditory credit, an end to no-real-wage-increases, an end to healthcare as an industry ($ and health doesn’t mix, guys).

Thanks for reading this rant!

We need some software/computer hackers to hijack the financial system. It’s all just numbers and code anyway on wall street…

We need a revolution. American citizens need to take over AIG and the big five banks. The government won’t do it. Voteing is fine but politics is just the marketing department for the financial industry. They tell us what we want to hear and then break our backs with more and work and less pay. We need to mark our targets and take executive’s houses, company assets, cars and everything else. We need to put these companies out of business if our government refueses to do it. I’ll bet that if a group had taken over AIGs offices and had one big yard sale most of America would have backed them and the politicans would have been forced to back down.

What a bunch of crybabies!!!…They elect a President that can’t control his spending…people buying homes, cars they can’t afford…and forget about the credit card debt. Our ancestors did not have it so good and worked harder, overcame more problems than we ever faced.

Interesting radio show. I am currently teaching an economic development course at the University of Massachusetts-Dartmouth. Sure the many issues, with an emphasisis on ‘inequalities,’ discussed or addressed by Mr. Bruce Judson did somehow permit me to immediately retransport myself to the classroom.

The writer, Yves A. Isidor, is the executive editor of wehaitians.com, a democracy and human rights journal.

So the question of the day quickly turns from “Who is John Galt” to “Who is Patrick Henry?”

Where do I sign up? My uniform is pressed and ready.

- George from Washington

For all of those that missed it: When he was talking about FDR being elected in 1928 he was referring to the scenario that he wrote about in his book. His book was is a work of fiction that parallels the great depression, but ultimately ends in revolution and not the new deal.

I think martial law and private armies aka private security forces will certainly be enlisted by the rich to protect their weath; that and the army of lobbyists that already argue their case.

I must say that you could do a lot to democratizing your system in the United States if you far lower election spending limits. Here in Canada an MP – Representative can only spend about 100,000 in an election campaign and that is to represent one of the larger jurisdictions. If you have to “borrow” so heavily from the rich to run a campaign, it becomes very difficult to not uphold their interests while you are in government.

The prospect of a Fascist neighbor is very scary up here north of the Great Lakes, but an all too real prospect for my taste. Time to grab a canoe and head up river.

Tom, you did sound incredulous, and you shouldn’t be. Maybe revolution, maybe just chaotic violence, maybe some kind of extreme move by the government to squash it, maybe left and right revolutionaries fighting each other, who knows. But the course is set, if we stick to it, for real trouble.

“We need some software/computer hackers to hijack the financial system. It’s all just numbers and code anyway on wall street…

Posted by Mariah, on October 15th, 2009 at 1:43 pm EDT”

I don’t think so…

You take apart what you don’t like piece by piece – but legally.

If the WHOLE world would only decide McDougal’s Bad-Karma Burgers ™ were to be shunned, how long would they be able to continue trying to sell them. And if many the next 10000 or so incarnations of those running such businesses were to be as some suitable animal, perhaps such businesses would cease to be even started! Certainly not as mere meat cows, nor as HongKong sewer rats lest they enjoy the company of Mr Cheney (let us all pray…NOW!), but perhaps fittingly as boy cows destined to be caged and tortured into veal.

If AARFolks’s 8 or 9 contractors sending CAN-SPAM Act compliant email (that I would simple call SPAM) were to generate NO NEW BUSINESS at all, how long would they be paid to continue? That they enjoy a WHOPPING 3% success rate speaks terribly of the sheeple responding.

But doing ANYTHING illegal to the financial system is sheer folly. You would hurt a lot of innocents, and probably garner even more “bailout” for some arrogant fatcats. And you would damage your cause, before being “accidentally” killed or plunked in jail forever.

You might just want to see which large multinational bank quietly gave across the board MAJOR base salery increases, to soften the glare of BONUS seeking searchlights.

— penned by someone who wrote international funds transfer related software for some such similar monster for a dozen or so years…

There’s another very good new book which addresses a similar issue” “The Lights in the Tunnel.”

The book also talks about inequality, but attributes it primarily to advancing technology. The book stays that in the next 10-20 years we may see massive unemployment due to job automation, and that this may cause the economy to collapse due to depressed consumer demand.

The real danger is a revolution that results in communism/planned economy. If capitalism fails, that is the only alternative.

Income inequality has many consequences in a democracy, not least of which, is the subversion of our political system, itself. Consider the number of independently wealthy politicians (Bloomberg) who assume power and shape public policy to serve their class interests. The idea that the phrase “giving back” has entered the American vernacular is, in and of itself, offensive. Often this is used by independently wealthy Americans, who step in and out of the public sector, to justify their presence when they are in the public sector. How does Rob Rubin, for example, explain his work as treasury secretary, deregulating the financial sector fast and furiously before stepping into Citigroup to make obscene amounts of money pursuing practices on Wall Street that had formerly been regulated (i.e., illegal)and that would ultimately threaten the national, even the world, economy!

There has been much talk of middle America living beyond its means, not knowing how to save, not planning for a rainy day, when, in fact, these Americans are merely trying to recreate the lifestyle they knew as children. When, in their childhoods, families could own a home, send their children to a well-functioning public school with debate clubs and theater troupes and football teams, and enjoy annual vacations, all on the income of one breadwinner, usually the father, today, two incomes from the same types of jobs the previous generation worked, barely cover the fixed costs of living (shelter, food, transportation). Neighborhood schools spend disproportionate amounts of money on standardized tests and oddly negotiated union contracts, while gutting almost everything that made school tolerable to the average teenager. This is by design. The top 1% do not send their children to public schools. They do not fly on commercial airlines. They do not vacation where the beleaguered middle class family, after years of saving up, might find some respite from the August heat.

Add to this a retirement structure based on 401ks rather than defined benefit plans, and you’ve got a volatile generational divide, with rentiers only concerned about the movement of the Dow and young and middle-aged Americans worried about getting or keeping their jobs.

We are undoubtedly at a point of crisis that is unprecendented, and unless the current administration, which was voted into office by millions of Americans responding to the call for “change”–unless this administration takes very bold actions to generate new jobs, to restructure healthcare for all, and to revitalize public spaces–parks, roads, schools, etc.–we most certainly will be drifting toward extreme volatility. I haven’t written before…there are many Madame Defarges in the outer boroughs…just knitting…

Sure hope so!

The time for resolving our differences within the political process is over. The political process has proven to be easily manipulated, easily hijacked, and easily corrupted. No one trusts it anymore. Congress is a pack of jackels congratulating themselves on resisting their own constituencies.

Big Finance and Big Business have sold out and sabotaged the middle class in order to access cheap labor overseas, and the Big Government helps. Big Media looks the other way. I laugh when I hear Pres. Obama talk about the election fraud of the Afghanistan election…the ACORN scandals show just how unstable a platform he’s standing on. He’s helped preside over the looting of the taxpayer to support a financial system built upon fraud. It’s the largest robbery in history, and he’s held the door for the robbers getaway. I declare his presidency a failure. He’ll be hard pressed to pull out something positive.

The earlier comments already show a split between groups who think there is a basis for revolution. The left thinks it is overdue because of socioeconomics and discrimination. The right, because of eroding individual property rights, loss of economic power, and fraudulent behavior of financial and other corporate interests.

When government loses the support and trust of the middle class, which it is on the verge of doing, all bets are off. The middle class won’t give up their privileges and comfort peacefully. The Tea Parties should be taken seriously, not brushed off by an arrogant leftist media.

I suspect we’ll eventually devolve into a Balkans-like situation…but along ideological grounds, not religious. The clouds of war are gathering.

I think the closet we ever came to revolution was when George McGovern ran as the Democratic nominee against Nixon in 1972.

We also had the treat of communism taking place here which at least forced concessions from the ruling class here. But now that the Soviets the Chinese communists are gone, we don’t even have that.