I hope that Hasan can recover from his injuries–and it sounds like he will–so he can go through a judicial process. It’s difficult to make sense of something that seems so senseless; and, although we may never be able to make any sense out of this, we have a better chance now that it looks as though he’ll survive.

In a broader sense, there most likely will not be one absolute truth here. Some will want to hold onto one single explanation, though, like he was depressed, or that he was angry, or that he was a religious fanatic, or that the military negligently ignored some very overt red flags, and so on.

It may be impossible for some to think this tragedy has many reasons that came together in a very tragic way; a perfect storm of sorts, yet it is the culmination of many factors that is most likely. There may be one predominant reason over all others that is more compelling than the others, but it will also probably not be at the exclusion of the others.

I wonder if there will be anything to learn here? Will anything come to light? Or will what has occurred further obscure any meaning we might take away from the problems of which this tragedy seems representative?

The more I have been reading about this man the more it seems to me that he should have been discharged from the military more than a year ago. This man was clearly in downward spiral and I can’t believe that not one of his superior officers did not notice this.

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/11/09/us/09reconstruct.html?_r=1&hp

Bret it seems the Military did ignore some red flags and I hope that they have a serious reorganization on how they deal with people who are showing signs of mental stress.

This kind of tragedy should never happen again.

Harassment for religious beliefs is not new in the military. My father was in the Navy having been drafted towards the end of WW2 he once told me how he was harrased for being a religious Jew. One time he was beaten up for praying on a Friday night. Of course this was over 60 years ago. One thing he did relate, he never prayed in the barracks again and kept his religion to himself after that incident. The military seems to me to be very steeped in a Christian ideology and this seems to go way back.

We have to remember it was desegregated until the Korean war and that still took years to work out.

Wondering if Hasan, being a psychiatrist, was self-medicating himself; and, if so, whether any medication he was taking could have affected his state of mind.

On your program and in the media the question is continually being raised as to whether this tragedy was a terrorist act. Of course it was. Any act of this nature ignites terror among those present at the scene, as well as people around the country. Being an extremist Muslim is not a prerequisite for being a terrorist. He killed a bunch of innocent people. That makes him a terrorist.

All the discussions about this man are slightly eerie! He was a psychiatrist. The psychiatric profession has responsibility to protect patients from unbalanced psychiatrists! The military may need more psychiatrists but it doesn’t need BAD psychiatrists. I am glad that as I write, one of your guests is addressing this issue. Still, the responsibility goes beyond the military – the profession of psychiatry has its own responsibility to 1) protect their patients, 2) help psychiatrists who are mentally ill!

Putney,

They don’t let people out with mental health problems until they actually crack.Often times they will force them to crack before they let them out. Not so like what hasan did but. I seen this happen where i guy broke his leg and wanted to be dischraged during AIT, instead they kept him in a small room to sit by himself all day, couldn’t read, watch t.v. or anything, cause he was not part of teh group and training that all he did for 3 months. the only time he could talk to people were on the weekends.

He cracked and drink bleach got on suicide watch and was supposed to be discharged a week later but didnt so after he got off of sucided watch, he went to the PX, got a calling card, got a plane home and left. when he came back a week later after threat of jail, they finally discharged him

I’d like to know what the panel makes of the fact that Hasan was on Obama’s transition team as it related to Homeland Security. Seems like it’s not just the military who did a terrible job screening this guy.

The caller right now is calling it like it is. with Tim M., the rest of his examples.

I missed his name

That last caller came across as pretty extreme, but he made a point. When Israelis bomb Palestinians, the media calls it a military action. When Palestinians bomb Israel, the media calls it terrorism. Both action are terrorism in truth.

A panelist said that people of “every persuasion” are made fun of in the military for their ethnicity or religious beliefs. How many white Christian heterosexual men are harassed over their skin color, religion, gender, or sexuality, to the point of becoming homicidal, suicidal or suffering PTSD because of it?

I’m certainly not defending the shooter- just pointing out that racist harassment in the military should not be dismissed as something that “everyone” goes through.

Just two questions needs to be answered.
(1) Does the training of a Military Psychiatry include the trainee experiency a psychiatric examination?
(2) Does the training of a Military Psychiatry include experiencing psychotherapy.

Oh well time for some professional quality control

The claim that the media only focuses wrath on Muslims is not valid: think Waco, the raids on polygamist sects in the West, etc. Any extremist religious position is likely to attact civil and media opprobrium.

jeff,

it been debunk already so nice trr trying to blame obama

nice try

http://www.npr.org/blogs/thetwo-way/2009/11/story_debunked_about_fort_hood.html

Author Jerome Corsi, who was among the group that “Swift Boated” Sen. John Kerry during the 2004 presidential election and more recently penned The Obama Nation: Leftist Politics and the Cult of Personality, has another eye-catching story at the conservative World Net Daily website.

The headline reads: “Shooter Advised Obama Transition; Fort Hood Triggerman Aided Team On Homeland Security Task Force.”

And the story begins with this:

Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, the alleged shooter in yesterday’s massacre at Fort Hood, played a homeland security advisory role in President Barack Obama’s transition into the White House, according to a key university policy institute document.

Here’s what NPR national security/intelligence correspondent Tom Gjelten tells us about Corsi’s conclusion:

This claim is so exaggerated as to be without merit.

Nidal Hasan was one of 308 people whose names appear on a list of “participants” in a series of public roundtable meetings organized by the “Presidential Transition Task Force,” a project of the Homeland Security Policy Institute (HSPI) at George Washington University. Hasan was not himself a member of the Task Force.

Frank Cilluffo, the HSPI director, says the participants’ list, published as an appendix to the Task Force report, was no more than a tally of those people who RSVP’d to a notice of the roundtable meetings, which took place between June 2008 and February 2009. “Hasan joined as a member of the audience,” Cilluffo says.

When Cilluffo saw a picture of Hasan, he remembered him making a public comment during one of the roundtable meetings. “I had to cut him off, because he was going on too long,” Cilluffo says. He says he can not recall what Hasan was saying.

Corsi’s report, by the way, does something of a U-turn about midway through. “While the GWU task force participants included several members of government, including representatives of the Department of Justice and the U.S Department of Homeland Security,” he writes, “there is no indication in the document that the group played any formal role in the official Obama transition, other than to serve in a university-based advisory capacity.”

And an “editor’s note” attached to Corsi’s story after its publication says “Hasan is being reported as a participant in the GWU Homeland Security Policy Institute’s Presidential Transition Task Force, not as a member, noting the group was a university think-tank, not part of the Obama administration official transition team.”

So, he begins with a sure-to-shock conclusion — that Hasan played a “homeland security advisory role” in the transition. Then, at a point in the story that many readers won’t reach or hear about, Corsi reverses course

I keep hearing the words, “Odd” and “Eccentric” during this broadcast. If any psychiatrists are listening, please consult the DSVM-IV and go to “Paranoid Personality Disorder” which is on a spectrum with Delusional Disorder and Schizophrenia and is characterized under “Odd or Eccentric” behavior. Please consult the European definition which includes hatred of groups who are not like you. In the psychiatric literature you might find your explanation. Paranoid Personality Disorder sometimes (though rarely) has a definite component for violence.

Please clear something up for me. Last Friday, Tom Ashbrook and his guests all cautioned against speculating as to the motives of Major Hassan. They then proceeded to speculate that the murders of 13 innocent people was a direct result of Major Hassan’s opposition to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. I think we can accurately conclude that speculation is reckless unless it’s WBUR’s brand of speculation.

Obviously, as more and more evidence appears, Major Hassan’s Jihadist ideology will suggest a motive that will prove to be unpalatable to the PC minds of public radio.

I would like to comment on the culture that exist on the Fort Hood base.

I have two siblings that have served in the armed forces, one that is still
in active duty and has just returned from his forth deployment to Iraq.

They have both talked in length about the outright racism and bigotry
that they had to endure during their time on the Fort Hood base.

They also expressed concerns about the Kileen, Texas residents
and the surrounding Fort Hood community, that had shown nothing but
hostility towards anyone that was not white, regardless of the individual’s
service to the country.

haha that video was the one we watched last December when i made my comments on Friday’s show.we also had to do a online course in regard to telling our commanders if there a problem and discrimination.

The video is a interactive one where you have like 3 choices.

I hope Joe L. loses for his next election what a disappointment he become. Sad our Closed minded posters folks with try to use this to spread hate and fear towards muslims, and arabs or anyone brown.

“He killed a bunch of innocent people. That makes him a terrorist.”
Posted by Jason

If the term “terrorist” is to be defined that loosely, then many American presidents could be labeled as terrorists—and I’m not necessarily saying some shouldn’t qualify. However, it’s important to consider a perpetrator’s intent before classifying their actions as terrorism. Hasan’s primary motivation doesn’t appear to have a direct connection to the advancement of a political, or even a religious, ideology. Although his personal religious beliefs may have been the primary reason Hasan FELT rejected, the actual reason he was alienated by those around him had more to do with his personality flaws. Hasan openly projected those flaws through his religious beliefs and alienated himself.

Hasan seemed to be reacting violently on a personal level to being rejected among those from which he sought and expected acceptance. It’s not unlike the motivation of those who’ve gone “postal” at their former work place after being fired, or those who randomly go on shooting sprees at malls. I don’t think Hasan’s actions rises to the level of being terrorism; at least not the kind commonly defined as being the use of violence a means to gain the advancement of a political/religious end.

On Point Producer(s)

Please open the comment section earlier. What harm is done by the 3-4 comments you get overnight?

The real tragedy may be that Maj Hasan was ONLY a mentally unstable extremist. If he were gay, he would have been discharged with little time to nurture such hostility with being connected with an organization he despised. DZ mentioned that it is extremely difficult to discharge an officer, and this is even when talking about someone with serious unit cohesion issues. Being gay is a greater threat to the military! It warrants more scrutiny than mental instability and extremism. The former leads to immediate termination without regard to the individual whereas the latter warrants sensitivity to a muslum man who may have been offended.

When it comes to being discharge in the military there is a clause that allows you to get out before Boot camp and your job training is complete, much harder once active duty its called failure to adapt to military life styles, normally if one uses this the command struture will put as push pressure on them to crack or disobey orders and get in trouble so they can give a dishonorable or keep them in instead of a general discharge.

Least in the Amry when people hate it and wish to get out they say its a volunteer force but you sign a contract and once the word of someone wishing to get out the command structure attacks them until they either quietly submit and back down or they get in trouble.

The only sure way is for someone to say their gay, suicide attempts, mental breakdowns are not helped but instead encourage the command structure to attack that person as being weak. All those videos they make us watch about helping fellow soldiers are just to say we tried, but from the years i seen the ones who tried to get help were made fun of, laugh at, discouraged and this being in a Liberal state like Mass.

It was disturbing to listen to Daniel Zwerdling’s report about how Hasan behaved with fellow co-workers. These people are mental health professionals and they fail to spot obvious clues that this guy is not stable? How are they able to spot anyone who is mentally ill if they could not diagnose a co-worker who they saw frequently (perhaps every day) where they could see the ramping up of these tell-tale “odd behaviors”. By not taking the courageous step of turning-in a fellow MD they needlessly put other soldiers in harm’s way.

I still think we are looking too hard. Sometimes the simple answer is best. Examine the profile of typical spree killers. This individual fits well into the profile. A disgruntled/disaffected middle aged american male who lashes out violently. I’m not sure there is a solution or grand preventative measure to keep this from ever happening again. In a nation of 275 million stressed out people, some small percentage is going to snap.

To Jason…when the Israel army attacks a Palestinian target (such as a Hamas rocket team), it IS “a military action”. When Hamas attacks Israel it IS a terrorist act…there is no “when Palestine attacks”…Hamas and Hezbollah ARE terrorist organizations. Therefore their actions are terrorist acts. Israel is a recognized government. Hamas builds, equips and sends suicide bombers to attack civilians. There is a vast different! I am catholic by the way (before someone rudely calls me a Zionist).

Regarding the point that an incident like this should be linked to the murderer’s religion or not, we shouldn’t dance around the issue of religion when a witness had heard Major Hassan saying “Allahu akbar,” — “God is great.” before he opened fire. We are sensitive to a crime committed by Muslims like this for a very obvious reason. Pattern: 9/11, suicide bombings in the Middle East. If 9/11 were operated by Christians or Buddhists, we would be super alert whenever violence is caused by another Christian or Buddhist.
Whether he already has deep personality trouble and only use Islam as an excuse to his action is irrelevant.
The fact someone CAN justify his action using his/her religion is the trouble of religion.

I had to laugh out loud when some of the callers and panelists worried about the effects that this incident would have on military diversity. As a person that was accepted into the militaries language program and then kicked out for being gay, I can tell you that diversity is not on their minds. How unfortunate that this country is worried about offending a possible terrorist but has no problem throwing away others because of their sexuality. It is pretty sad that the military is more afraid of homosexuals than possible embedded terrorists.

A few points:

1. Major Hassan was a Muslim. A Catholic or a Jew did not kill 13 people.
2. The Arkansas recruiter attack was also committed by a Muslim man.
3. The soldier who killed an army captain and other soldiers with a grenade in Iraq was a Muslim.

All of these acts and all of 9/11 were committed solely by MUSLIMS! Why do so many people want to put this aside for political correctness! Place blame were blame is due!!

If these acts were committed by a Catholic or a member of some unique Christian church this would have been the focus of the attention. Instead we have so many wringing their hands over references to Islam and/or blaming PTSD.

Hassan was shouting Allah Akbar before he opened fire. He was never deployed! PTSD does not apply to him! I know soldiers and
Marines who have been deployed for multiple times, but this officer (who was NOT going into combat after all) was complaining about his first deployment!! You have to be kidding!

On top of this, he joined the army voluntarily, had his schooling PAID FOR by taxpayers AND received a salary WHILE in school, but didn’t want to serve?! He knew what the contract required.

I hope they execute him within a year. He is a coward and a Muslim terrorist no matter how you look at it!

Certainly this incident is cause for concern and gives rise to a lot of stress but wouldn’t it be better to forgo all the speculation, half-baked reports, hearsay and gossip and proceed to a thorough judicial settlement according to defined rules of evidence and procedures rather than conduct one more pointless and prejudicial “lynching’ by media. We have courts, we have lawyers, we have a multitude of experts, ( who obviously don’t all agree especially when it comes PSTD), we have constitutional precedents to handle these matters. Give the system a chance.

‘Brett it seems the Military did ignore some red flags and I hope that they have a serious reorganization on how they deal with people who are showing signs of mental stress.’ -Putney Swope

That is spot on, Putney; the more that comes out about this man, the more it seems the predominant problem here was the Military ignoring some very marked red flags. I am non-plussed that in the past year Hasan was able to get a rank promotion, and he was able to complete his medical training and receive his assignment, albeit the Military has a shortage of officers and psychiatrists. As Joanna Drzewieniecki points out, the Military doesn’t need BAD psychiatrists!

In as much as it sounds like he has had very overt problems for over six years, it seems his problems escalated in the past year.

Just out of curiosity, I wonder what can be attributed to the spike in his problems over the last year. Todd raises a point that I hope is explored in the investigation of Hasan: what, if any, medication was he taking; and, if he was, what was he taking, and was he self-medicating?

Was it simply fear of imminent deployment? Was it increased tensions after being sent to Fort Hood and living in Kileen? I would argue that in a stable person, those stresses would have caused any person tension, but they would only have culminated in an act to the extreme of Hasan’s in an unstable person.

Even if religion had not played any role whatsoever, it sounds as though Hasan was having many difficulties in what he needed to learn in his medical training and performing his duties as a psychiatrist. I find it right down bewildering that among a host of psychiatrists and various personnel monitoring his progress through his internship, they could not see his clear periods of what sounds like depression and even mania, and a lot of delusional thinking. Hasan also seemed to have a heightened sense of persecution and paranoia, which should have been readily noticeable to trained staff around him.

Thanks, Michael, for responding to that already debunked propaganda that Hasan was an advisor to Obama’s transition team in Homeland Security. It amazes me what some gullible, or disingenuous, people will think passes as a “fact.”

Thanks, Todd, for responding to the “terrorist” comment. I would also agree that Hasan’s religious beliefs appeared only to be his “justification” for his actions. He doesn’t seem to be part of any fringe organization working in a coordinated effort to make a political/religious statement.

On the political front: leave it to old Joe Lieberman to strike early in an overly politicized posture! That man needs to go! At least Lindsey Graham’s statements were more thoughtful and restrained…

I saw a “psychiatrist” put on Fox yesterday, who was not connected to the case at all in any way, give his “expert” opinions about what happened. He said there was NO mental health issue with Hasan, that he acted purely out of anger toward US policy and extreme ideology. I think, if the guy is really a psychiatrist, particularly if he has a license to practice, he should be reprimanded…Lieberman’s comments were also made on Chris Wallace’s show on Fox.

To those of you who are so concerned that this might be labeled as terrorism, would you feel better to call it a hate crime?

Wow. A lot of you were pretty angry about my comments earlier. My point was that when an individual goes on a rampage, whether for political motivations or just “going postal”, there seems little distinction to me. It is terrorism when you incite an atmosphere of fear in a population.

Michael, regarding your response to my earlier comment: You’re right, there is a difference. One group has power and the other doesn’t. But the result is the same. People are being killed.

Nicholas,
I don’t think people are processing/commenting about what happened in such a way because they don’t want to beat the “Muslim terrorist” drum purely out of politically correctness. They are showing caution because they are trying to employ a little thought and care. The dictionary’s definitions of “terrorism” or “terrorist” would not fit, and it’s the connotation to organized attacks for the purposes of a political or religious statement that people are trying to refrain from.

Police: Man shoots two co-workers, self in Cathedral City murder/suicide

notice the reference to religion
oct 10/29/09
http://www.mydesert.com/article/20091029/NEWS08/91029021/Police–Man-shoots-two-co-workers–self-in-Cathedral-City-murder/suicide

What do you think is the incentive for the government here? Would they rather label this as one crazy guy with a gun, rather than drum up the fear that terrorists can infiltrate our strongest iconic institutions?

Jason,
People are responding to your use of the words “terrorism” and “terrorist.” There would have to be some proof that the act was being used to make a political statement. In the context of “fear” the word “terror” would better suit. This would only matter if you had some concern over the reason. The reason may not matter to you. When the news of the first plane crashed into the WTC, people thought it was just a terrible accident. The reason did matter even though people were dead one way or another.

Some words we toss around: “snapped” (I guess the modern equivalent of nervous breakdown?); and “unstable.” What I assume unstable means is something like co-dependent, gullible, latching onto ideologies or individuals as if those were substitutes for — for what? Let’s call it maturity. People who think the highest thing is to be an appreciator, one who recognizes quality/purity/high standards, one whose pride and sense of self rests on that kind of association with Great Good.
It made sense to me that people (men especially) who don’t have close groups of friends/colleagues/relations to argue with would soon find themselves seeing only one side, without an appreciation for the many colors of human understanding. Hasan did not even have a wife to argue with, to set him straight or at least challenge him, whether for sport or for real. People who cannot find where they belong but get excluded (or simply withdraw) — the outsiders — are pretty vulnerable to becoming eccentric (outside of the circle, or center).
If religions, in absorbing loners like Hasan, would be less about preaching the One True Way, but instead would be more about How Confusing and Rich and Diverse is Life, then I’d feel safer.
I agree with Michael that getting out of the military is tough. Since forever, the service invests a lot in its members, and then, to my knowledge, as well, the military pushes (and has pushed) someone trying to leave until they crack, till they can be dishonorably discharged. Senator Kennedy once wrote a letter for someone in Massachusetts who was being pressured like that. That person’s life was pretty much ruined even though he got out, ruined for good, but he got out in one piece. He blamed the military for his disintegration.

Nicholas,
Ah, so now it is a cover up! A vast conspiracy! If it were an act of terrorism then the Military would be quick to report it as such: it fits in line with their goals and objectives, their reason to exist. Don’t you find it interesting that the FBI isn’t involved so far in this investigation? That is a pretty good indication that the feds don’t believe it has any real connection to “terrorism.” If the government were behind a “cover-up story” then would Joey L. be running his mouth the way he is? He’s no maverick and no great purveyor of justice!

The military only looks bad here, anyway they report to civilian authorities. Google FBI and Fort Hood and you’ll see they’re all over this.

Liberman speaks truth to power, at least the power that’s in place today.

In any case, the motivation of the government should be considered carefully as this investigation unfolds.

Yeah, look at what the FBI are investigating, things like trajectory re-enactments…you don’t hear them in the media talking about terrorist connections

Ellen Dibble,
I wonder if the Military will reveal anything if it does find any “pushing” of Hasan to crack. Maybe his assignment to Ft. Hood before deployment did intend to put him into an environment where he would be “pushed” a bit. Also the word “unstable” generally would be lacking control of one’s emotions or marked by unpredictable behavior, as it pertains to mental wellness. I can only see that you don’t like that word or don’t think it fits because it is too general?

Brett, I’m sort of playing with that word, “unstable,” to see what people think it means, at least in this case. We don’t say that Mohammad Atta was unstable, though I heard somewhere on the hour this morning where it sounded like someone thought getting pushed too far toward unsoundness would lead to religious extremism and the sort of “acting out” that Atta undertook. It could be a continuum, like pornography where I know it when I see it. Whole groups can be unstable, I suppose, and not know it because they are all tipped in the same direction.
But you say unstable means lacking control of one’s emotions, with notably unpredictable behavior. Selling all of one’s furniture SIX WEEKS BEFORE DEPLOYMENT (as I heard Hasan did) is not unstable or unpredictable. It’s consistent and intentional.
I guess I don’t like unstable because I suspect a huge proportion of people are pretty unstable, and may be better off for it. If you couldn’t be unstable all on your own, I suspect you’d have to enlist some helper drugs such as LSD or — legal or illegal; even alcohol, anything to get you from one attitude/fixation to the next.
I’d say it’s managing of one’s fluidity that is important. How is fluidity different from instability? One is dangerous, the other is useful. But they are about the same, chemically speaking, perhaps.
When I listened to a POV (I think, Sunday at 2:00 AM) documentary on the way children nowadays are being given one pharmaceutical after the other, and I know what I know about the pollution of our environment, beginning in utero, I think that the kind of stability our ancestors used in their personalities is different from that which many of us use nowadays.
So there. I’m sorry it’s not very succinct.

The audio for this show will be posted here by 3 p.m. ET today. Please check this page again. Thank you.

It’s 5:00 do you know where your audio is?

“Liberman [sic] speaks truth to power…”
Posted by Nicholas

Ha! Lieberman couldn’t speak the truth if it were super-glued to his tongue. If you spell it correctly, what he speaks is right there in his name: LIEberman

What didn’t you get about 9/11? Muslims want you dead.

Hey Bush’s Fault,

Muhammed Ali is a muslim… Does he want me dead?!

You’ve gotta be kidding me!

Yes Cory…he probably does…when did Cassius Clay ever condemn 9/11?

Do all muslims need to submit to your litmus test? What happens to those who refuse, Bush’s Fault?

Why aren’t the 1.5 billion Muslims (whatever the number is) weighing in here, saying that Islam is about peace, Salaam, Shalom, and has been since it erupted from among some warring tribes as a new way to live under one over-power, Allah. Why?
I’m thinking of a story I read lately about a section of Africa, one particular river valley, where a certain large cat (cheetah?) was deemed to be extremely dangerous, the al-kaida of the cat kingdom. Western zoologists (I think) heard what a bad “name” those cats had. Maybe they worried the species would be exterminated. Anyway they sallied forth to that African river valley, and what they determined was that one particular animal (cheetah?) had a bad toothache, and so couldn’t eat its usual food (hyenas or whatever), so it found humans to be easier to chew.
But the people round about didn’t know about the specific animal and its toothache, so they blamed the entire species. There was no delegation of cheetahs, ambassadors of peace. Maybe the other cheetahs thought the one with the toothache would come after them as well if they made such a move. Better organization would bring them into line. As they say in extraterrestrial films, “Take me to your leader.”

“What didn’t you get about 9/11? Muslims want you dead.”
Posted by bush’s fault

There’s fault in your inductive logic as well. To say that all “Muslims want you dead,” because of the alleged actions of a few, uses the same flawed logic as stating that all sheep must be white because the only ones that you’ve ever observed have been white. Most of the Muslim world condemned the 9/11 attacks.

Hey Bush’s Fault,

I’m not telling the forum I’m leaving, but I hope you decide to. If you suggest that Muhammad Ali wants you dead because he’s a Muslim, I know you’re either anti-Muslim, a racist, or just plain crazy. Your pathetic 9/11 logic is thoroughly specious. I’ll tell you this much: When I served in the US Army in 1979 my unit went to Hattiesburg, Mississippi for training. Local police arrested two soldiers in our unit, one white, one black, for walking together on the street in the town. The army did not condemn the practice; it only restricted all soldiers to post. I guess the US Army is racist because of its actions. I won’t forget it, nor will I forget the historic racists actions of the US military.

I am still confused why the military, knowing about all the signals of Islamic radial ideology, would not only keep him “treating” people with stress disorders and on top of that plan to ship him to a war zone. I don’t understand that thinking on our part.

Fault rests with each individual Hassan encountered during his unrest. Blame directed at the Army or Government is pointless. Institutions are governed by men and fault lies with men. Complacency people exhibit when observing those weaving down the path of regularity continues to amaze me. Everyone needs to take on some personal responsibility here and raise the standard of blame to ourselves for doing nothing to arrest his behavior.

But enough about you all…let’s examine Ellen Bloedel’s question from the California’s Clean Energy Future segment…since NPR is so terrified of Fox et al, what do you say?

You folks are preaching to the choir. How do you get the Fox News audience on board??
Posted by Ellen Bloedel, on November 9th, 2009 at 11:54 am EST

Hey Bush’s Fault,

Stay on topic, as requested in the Leave a Comment section. The Clean Energy Future segment is another blog. Given your comments about Muslims, you may find a better a place to blog. Try Fox News.

bush’s fault is a troll. Ignore it.

‘But you say unstable means lacking control of one’s emotions, with notably unpredictable behavior. Selling all of one’s furniture SIX WEEKS BEFORE DEPLOYMENT (as I heard Hasan did) is not unstable or unpredictable. It’s consistent and intentional.’ -Ellen Dibble

Well, I heard he gave away many if his possessions, including food, the day before the shootings, which could be viewed as behavior associated with suicidal thoughts. He explained his behavior to his neighbors as he was giving away his stuff because he was going to be deployed, but the timeline reveals that his behaviors were antecedent behaviors manifested just prior to the shootings. It seems that if giving away his possessions were a precursor (the mental health/behavioral use of that word) to being deployed six weeks later, he wouldn’t have given away food, unless of course he didn’t like frozen vegetables and saw it as a good opportunity! But then, why did he purchase them in the first place?

I also don’t think “intentional” behavior necessarily indicates “stability.”

The kinds of behaviors Hasan displayed–based on what Daniel Zwerdling reported in the show that he had learned about from Hasan’s peers and superiors–were indicative of someone’s behaviors that didn’t fit appropriately to the situations.

What has been sticking out very prominently to me about Hasan’s behaviors since he had arrived in Kileen is that he seemed as if he was trying to provoke some kind of altercation or incite some kind of violence or other aversive action against himself, e.g., he would walk around his neighborhood in traditional Muslim garb or go to prayer at the local mosque in his military uniform. On its face, it doesn’t square with some of his feelings he expressed to people he knew about being persecuted, but many people who have paranoid feelings or an exaggerated sense of being persecuted will “intentionally” put themselves in situations that will potentially draw trouble toward them. Often it is not clear why, but I think they actually want to be assaulted in some way to “prove” to themselves their feelings are actually rational.

Go to the following link for the REAL story abt FT Hood. Truth is stranger than fiction.

http://www.worldreports.org/news/244_fort_hood_recovery_of_the_chinese_currency_boxes

This guy was below par as a doctor. He was treating people and should have been demoted if not kicked out of the Army.
It is very telling that an officer who has an record like this guy had is hard remove as is a doctor in a hospital who has seniority. As I said before the military needs to do some serous reviews of this kind of behavior and performance. By the way we the tax payers footed the bill for this guys education and it seems to me if had been a civilian life he would have flunked out of med school or at least failed in his residency.

Of course he could have done this as a civilian as well.

I think it was in May, 5 months ago, that Hasan was being especially provocative (one instance), and I think it might 6 weeks ahead of now (mid-December) that he was to set to be deployed. I mean, that doesn’t shed much light on stability or impetuosity.
However, network news tonight (CBS or ABC) gave a website Hasan went to, out of Yemen, the website of an imam of the mosque he had attended in Virginia (where one or two of the 9/11 terrorists went), an imam who is especially able to incite people to suicidally attack infidels. It’s Anwar al-Aw-laki, more or less. I think it was ABC, and Charlie Gibson then had Obama on not exactly explaining how the military could have had this kind of knowledge and not taken preventive action. But tonight on Nightline and tomorrow on GoodMorning America there will be more of Obama, saying basically what a tragedy this is.
I think ABC did a bit of mongering there, mongering of a hot tip. The link to Christopher E. H. Story posted right above, linked to a London-based site that has been apparently talking about a World Leninist-Communist Revolution since 1969, and its shadow revolution out of the USA, feels similar. Haven’t I noticed the number 13, as in the number dead in Fort Hood? It confirms and proves something. Yeah, right.
Why do I doubt Hasan was acting on instructions out of Yemen? Because, as Brett points out, he was flaunting his disjointedness. It seemed a provocation, a stop-me-now kind of thing. The 9/11 people may have asked for lessons in flying but not in landing, which seems pretty disjointed, pretty stop-me-now, but they didn’t tell a room full of psychiatrists in grand rounds, with full PowerPoint display, that non-Muslims should be decapitated, had boiling oil poured on them, whatever it was he said.
Collective responsibility in institutions like the military — or an entire nation — is a big complex subject. Isn’t it so that Sweden, with the most secure, safest social structures, has (or had) the highest suicide rate? There is no magic pill.

Why was it that when a caller used the two words “rascist Zionist” on the Monday program, he was immediately cut off? Historically, Zionism has a very strong thread of racism going back to Jabotinsky and Israel’s current foreign minister is certainly racist. I am really tired of NPR constantly censoring criticism of Israel. Are you that afraid of AIPAC and Fox?

Brett suggests maybe people with paranoid ideation might draw actual persecution down upon themselves to sort of validate the paranoid ideation. I understand exactly what he means. It is a grand I-told-you-so when the people who are trying so hard to be tolerant (on top of their presumed underlying more sinister beliefs and undertakings) are exposed. As in when you attack vulnerable people with a semi-automatic at a military base, someone (a tiny female non-military officer) actually shoots you.
I could have told him that in advance, because I watch Nature, and I see that in the wild mothers abandon children who are sick, in the wild fathers break the necks of offspring who are only going to be a burden, or break their skulls with a rock. Or siblings actually fight to the death in the nest. The idea of absolute parental nurturing has its limits. I think “bastards” whose parents are less than true to them have stood in to exemplify the limits of Absolute and Total Trustworthiness. To them all standards are broken, and they break all standards. The human contract is a sham, start to finish (as they sort of prove to us all, as this comes to full flame for them)
To me, when someone splinters, it is this breaking of essential innocence that is happening. I refer you to William Blake’s Songs of Innocence and Experience, but I doubt Blake really knew his subject. Hasan now Knows.
The fragility of the human web. That is Side A.

Ellen I have to ask, what are you on about in that last post? How is it relevant to this mans behavior?

The police officer was doing what she was trained to do, the fact that this person was a woman is not an issue.

Until this man starts to speak I don’t think we will know what was the real motivation here. There is evidence that he was a poor med student and was not good at his job. This was documented for years, not months.

What I’m on about, Putney, is what makes someone “crack” in this sort of way. Is it sudden, or is is cumulative. Right now I’m thinking of the World Trade Center 3 that suddenly came down, a day or so after 9/11, to the amazement of certain architects, where it makes sense to me that certain forces are cumulative, weakening. But that is physics and this is psychology. I’m thinking of all the court cases I’ve transcribed where “real” criminals do criminal things, and I’m thinking those criminals are mostly a lot more hard-headed. They don’t crack. They don’t suddenly get shocked to the breaking point about great swaths of humankind. I’m thinking it’s not only criminals, but apparently confident parents of any species who make sure the next generation grows up curious and willing to take risks, ready for outreach.
The less fortunate animals or humans, those lower in the pecking order, shelter their offspring to such extent that “cracking” like this can happen (all that from a recent Nature PBS show on animal rearing behavior).
So I’m after every corner of our society, in some ways.
I’m glad to see heros of either gender.

With all due respect Ellen I think your drawing at straws here. 9/11 is non issue and to use in context to Hasan’s crimes is a bit much.

He was not liked by the people who worked with him.
He was bad at his job. He exhibited antisocial behavior and shunned other Muslims who did not agree with extremism.

Like Sgt.Joe Friday I think we should stick to facts.

I know what you mean, Putney. It’s a long shot to draw any comparisons between various incidents, but right up top, on Friday, people were saying that Hasan “snapped,” and when I objected about the generalizations, I didn’t get very far. So I decided to go toward the generalizations, since “snapping” does seem to recur in similar manner. Did you check the link posted at 9:31 last night? It’s scary the directions people can go after “senseless violence” occurs, with people overreacting and blaming, with ripple effects far and wide, and I guess you think I’m expanding those ripples. That’s not my intent.

Ellen in context to this mans alleged crime I think it’s a good idea to stay away from conjecturing. If you listened to what Daniel Zwerdling said about Hasan it was pretty clear that this guy was a bit of a jerk. He might of invited the abuse by mistreating people in the first place. Now he might not have been aware of how his actions created animosity in some, but at the end of the day his actions were not normal and the amount of violence Hasan committed here speaks to a more than just snapping to me.

I don’t seem to remember any of the Muslim solders interviewed in the last few days saying that harassment was a problem for them on the scale that Hasan’s family has alluded too.

As I said before my late father was beaten for praying and being Jewish. Did he go postal? No, he found a better place to pray and did so without his prayer shawl so as not to attract attention. He adjusted to being around a lot Southern white thugs. However this was in 1945, I would hope the military has become a better place than that now. It seems to me that it does.

Ellen,
I know! Wasn’t that the most bizarre website posted last night? I knew the grand conspiracy theorists would rear their heads in this. I see the producers of the show deleted the comment/link! As much as I am not liking how this tragedy is becoming politicized by politicians and media, I think conspiracy theorists also do much harm to the collective psyche. That whole WTC #7 crap and the like has caused turmoil and has slowed down the healing process (not to mention been a pain in the nether region on this blog) from 9-11. Unfortunately, there will be Fort Hood
“truthers” coming along the way as time begins to move from this tragedy. There was a brief mention on here about the Military engaging in a “covering-up” that Hasan is a terrorist because it makes them look bad. As if they already don’t look bad enough!!! So it goes…

I doubt that Hasan was terrorist. He was unstable and liked to draw attention to himself. If he was a terrorist he was a pretty dumb one. My take on this man was he was disturbed and angry at the world and decided to lash out.

Whatever this man is he is now going to go through a military court-martial and will most likely get the death penalty if he is convicted.

Putney, I thought your post about how your “late father was beaten for praying and being Jewish. Did he go postal? No, he found a better place to pray and did so without his prayer shawl so as not to attract attention. He adjusted to being around a lot Southern white thugs” — was a beautiful way to wrap up this thread. It reminds anyone looking that “being picked on” or “bullied” may be bad but the Jewish people really hold the copyright. And the grace with which Jews have sometimes managed is awesome; I have been thinking how mature that people is/are. Pretty much all the Jewish people I know do make sure everyone of themselves can stand on their own two feet and look square at the world. They don’t turn inward; they don’t behave defensively; their ways and deeds speak for themselves.
Maybe I have cornered the market on Great Jews. There are also Great Muslims in my community.
There is a review of a book on 9/11, entitled The Lies They Told (in the New York Times Book Review for 11/15/09, advance mailing) on The Ground Truth, The Untold Story of America Under Attack on 9/11, by John Farmer, dean of Rutgers School of Law, senior counsel to the 9/11 Commission. Farmer’s “hope is to lay some conspiracy theories to rest ‘by identifying and establishing the deception that actually did occur,’” and “suggests that the cold war did not come to an end until the 9/11 attacks took place. But this too is questionable. In trumpeting an ill-defined war against terrorism, Bush simply transposed the bombast of the cold war to the present to suggest that he was a new Churchill staring down evil and that America needed to combat a new totalitarian threat emerging from the Islamic world.”
I’m pretty sure Jewish people can see the sort of ganging-up tendency they have confronted when it’s fermenting in the grass toward Muslims. They would know best how Muslims can confront this, in my humble opinion.

Hi Ellen,

Sorry i find your last comment to be Dibble, naive quite frankly that the lesson Putney father learn is not exhibited by many of the political leaders overseas as well as here you can see this on many of the On point shows alittle exception from the people from J Street, but that older Jew that argued against him was nothing closed to what your saying or Putneys dad so seemed to stand talk., and use of terrorism and self defense has been used to do indefinite detentions, abused,kill and maim, and dehumanize people based on their religion. The same discrimination jews suffered back than are now being suffered by arabs minorities from the same people that had it done to them.

generalizing a whole group of people from one man experience and actions never gives you a full view of things and seems naive to me.

Good point, Michael, if I’m understanding you correctly, in that Jewish people can be in the front ranks blaming Arabs and Muslims. I know they at total loggerheads over the state of Israel and have been more or less since the day I was born. So I am totally blindering myself to that whole situation, not exactly naively. I’m speaking as a non-Jew, who sees that the kind of “generalizing a whole group of people” that happened in the Holocaust to the Jews (and which happened in this country to African Americans) is in danger of happening to Muslims. After 9/11, it was like an opportunity for scapegoating. The “axis of evil” was offered up by Bush 43, and though North Korea was part of it, Americans couldn’t get a real ideology out of North Korea. We could see an oppositional ideology coming out of Osama bin Laden, and for an American, it is not that easy to discriminate (distinguish) between a terrorist Muslim and a non-terrorist.
Well, now I get to rest my case. Case in point: Fort Hood. We don’t know Hasan’s motives, but there was an inability here, at some level, to do some preemptive “discrimination” in his evolution as a Muslim.
The more events like the Fort Hood massacre tend to make us generalize, the more we need to be specific, to look at the individuals.
I couldn’t agree with you more.

Ellen I can tell you that father was not thinking of all the Jews when he was trying to save his hide from these marines. He was in the Navy and was not a big guy.
He was religious and faith to him was a very personal thing. It had nothing to do with Jews everywhere in the world. In fact he had a lot issues with Jews from Russia, Israel and Iran (in the town I grew up in after the fall of the Shah a huge amount of very wealthy Iranian Jews moved in). Being from New York he had to deal with a lot of them and talk about a culture clash.

My fathers tactics were about survival, he was an 18 year old kid from Brooklyn how never went further south than Coney Island. He found himself in Alabama if I remember correctly, and had to contend with being a stranger in a strange land.

I am sick and tired of hearing about how the news never talks about Timothy McVeigh and the Columbine shooter’s religion. The fact is, in their case, it did not matter. McVeigh did not shout “Jesus is lord” as he blew up the federal building in Oklahoma and neither did the Columbine shooters as they opened up on their classmates. The fact is, this man in Fort Hood, Nidal Hasan shouted “Allah Akbar” as he began his rampage. That makes his religion very relevant to this debate.