I want to hear about New Haven, CT. What is unique about the recent collective bargaining agreement that the aft & the city worked out?

Since conservatism has quickly come back into vogue in America, we shouldn’t be suprised to see the cavalcade of teacher blaming return as well. They make too much money, they aren’t accountable, their union is evil, blah blah blah. If your overstimulated, underdeveloped students don’t succeed on standardized tests it is surely your fault and we should pay you less or fire you.

Is anyone in this country allowed to make a decent living anymore free of harassment? Get off of teacher’s backs! (and no, I am not a teacher or in any way part of the education establishment)

I had heard enough statistics to the effect that children in the USA are worse off than their counterparts around the world because they have fewer days in school per year and fewer hours in school per day. And I hear statistics today that American children are spending 7 hours a day 7 days a week using “media,” especially minority children, especially mobile media — it’s safer to be a couch potato than to go outside.
It is so clear that costly afterschool programs aren’t accessible to the children who need it. It is so clear we need more time in class.
So what happens when this hits the horizon of local educators? They make it abundantly clear at the Public Access board meetings that THE ENTIRE SUMMER IS NEEDED TO CLEAN THE SCHOOL BUILDINGS. So there.
I don’t see this mentioned at the Democrats for Education Reform site either. And I think it is “above the pay grade” for the teachers organizations. I mean, the one-class/one-teacher formula would have to go. For starters.

mm, who should get merit pay?
Should a teacher who teaches AP be financially rewarded for teaching the brightest of the bright over a special needs teacher who teachers students with a variety of IEPs?
How do you measure success & achievement in a student and then in a teacher? Does the teacher working in an upper class neighborhood have the same challenges as those in the inner city? Do students always ‘click’ at the same time? Shouldn’t teachers be encouraged to develop students who are lifetime learners rather than great test takers?

The Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation has just released a study that there is a direct link to performance in schools and the increased use of media (smart phones, MP3 players, Xboxes, DVRs, laptops and other devices). The increase use of such devices has exploded with children ages 8 to 18 devoting an average of seven hours and 38 minutes a day consuming some form of medial for fun. (Heavy users are rapidly increasing in number with 47% of them earning Cs and lower, whereas only 27% of light users—three hours or less a day—earn such grades.)

Media use is only one of a number of factors (psychological, mental, social, familial, cultural, economic) that influence students’ grades, influences for which it would be not only illogical, but absurd to hold teachers accountable. But, this is precisely what holding teachers accountable for their students’ grades does. How can any reasonable politician or educational administrator proceed with any plans to hold teachers accountable for their students’ grades without taking these incalculable, extra-school environment factors? To do so would be like demanding an elephant to sprout wings and fly.

Charles Maddox
Broadway, VA

I think that AP science and math teachers should make more than special ed teachers. While both types of teachers are needed, we need to attract top teachers in science and math so our best students can compete with those of China and India.

And did the AP teachers just produce those kids their senior year or were those kids nurtured through out high school? What about that 9th grade teacher that taught the fundamentals of writing that ’started’ them off? The Algebra teacher in 10th grade that made it “click”? The 11th grade teacher that put in the extra time preparing a student to take the leap into AP? I have all the respect in the world for AP teachers but I share that respect for all of the hard working teachers out there.

“New approaches for quality teaching and better schools”?

Oh dear, not those inspirational words again. How did all those other “new approaches” work out? Results were inevitably disappointing and every educational fad ends up being scrapped in favor of the next Big Idea. Behaviorism, cognitive learning theory, open-concept schools, forced integration, back-to-basics, No Child Left Behind (I could go on) — each was supposed to revolutionize education. Teachers talk a good game. But the real innovation is happening in non-public schools, where the educators actually believe in something.

I think rewarding prior teachers who prepared the math and science AP student in prior years would be a great idea.

As the wife and daughter of teachers I have heard it all! My husband teaches in a rural school in Vermont. In one class alone he has 15 students who are vastly different when it comes to learning, among these are special needs children. Whether you are teaching mid level, special ed or AP, each student has their own unique way of learning. Then you have personality connections which Ms. Weingarten leaves out of the learning equation. What one child finds remarkable in one teacher, another student may not. Ms. Weingarten is totally out of touch with the system and with young students. Her obvious focus is on the 20 percent of the student body who have the emotional and intellectual prowess to be on top. What about every other kind of learner out there? Is it now the educators fault that some of us are not strong book learners or is it DNA? This sounds so elitist, so Obama, so disappointing. Ms. Weingarten is an extension of the Chancellor in DC, both are very dangerous people.
Leave education to the teachers, parents and community, keep Washington out of the mix.

Liz,

If you were to do your “homework” before bashing public schools and heaping praise on Private ones take this into consideration..class size in Public vs. Private, economics and the desire to go to a Private School. My parents had 4 children, 2 went to Catholic School, 2 to Public. We are all doing great. Pres. Obama pays $36,000.00 per daughter for Sidwell and Friends. Name me 5 families in the NEK of Vermont who can afford that? We are at 10 percent unemployment right now and our State ran out of Unemployment Funds. My husband’s School is a haven for many children, with a loving staff and administration, I find comments like your insulting. Please volunteer at a school in a POOR community, anywhere USA then offer up some opinion based on fact. You know nothing of the families these students are coming from. Last week alone a family lost their home to a fire, they are left with NOTHING and let me tell you every teacher stepped up to help financially and emotionally. I am sorry if I speak so passionately but I have had it with this argument. Get in the schools and help out, dissecting the system causes more pain than pleasure.

I am a teacher who agrees with the idea of merit pay. However, I don’t think that a teacher’s merit has anything to do with the subject they teach. In fact, I have taught both special ed and regular ed students and I think my best teaching practices were developed in the special ed classroom, where I had to differentiate instruction in order to meet my students at a variety of levels. I think we should reward teachers for the amount of work and innovation that they do, not the outcomes of their students. Yes, teaching is an important job, but I don’t think we can measure a teacher’s efficacy solely based on the tests their students take. Kids today face lots of risks that impede with their learning. The real question for me is, if merit pay is implemented, how is merit going to be measured?

I also am offended by the person who said that real innovation is only happening in public schools where teachers “actually believe in something.” Listen, I have taught in independent schools, and value the colleagueship at those schools but you have to realize that those teachers have autonomy and are allowed to be more creative. In many cases, teachers in public schools are under a lot of pressure to adhere to so many inconsistent guidelines and their classrooms are overflowing with students. I don’t think you can make that comparison.

Teachers unions are more concerned with keeping failing teachers employed rather than educating students. There is not going to be any real substantive reform in public education until a school voucher program is passed into law.

Check out Adele Diamond’s research, that what students really benefit from is not “media”, BUT movement, dance, art, physical presence with communication, what our grandparents knew all along. Her research is groundbreaking for our time period now, and solid. Let me remind everybody, as a teacher, who teaches approximately 140 students a day, that my six years of university education has the lowest pay of all the MFA’s. I like what I do. I tell my own kids, get outside, put the media junk away, get out some paper, write, paint, cook, talk to your friend across the street and now the imaginary world presented to our youth through media. In a nutshell, if it’s physical, it’s therapy, and if there’s one thing all my students need, it’s THERAPY.

Ultimately, results matter not how hard someone works. That goes for both teachers and students.

It is interesting that you go from bonus pay for bankers to that of teachers. Both need teams to be successful. The teaching team is led by the principal. Instead of starting bonus pay with teachers, what about starting with the team leader. Teachers could vote on how much the principal in their school gets in bonus pay based on the improvement of test scores. Finding teams that work well together should improve scores.

There is a problem with tying teacher pay to student performance on standardized tests. We all, apparently have succumbed to the idea that only math, language and science teacher exist. Half of the teachers in the schools are teachers of other subjects and no one has given them the time of day when it comes to creating tests for those subjects. Will they not be eligible for compensation? Music, art, P.E., etc. teachers have a huge impact on learning. Let’s get real.

What does it say about looking for quality teachers when I, as a National Board Certified Teacher have had my pay docked 10 percent this year BECAUSE of this certification? Georgia voted to negate the ten year promised (and contracted) ten percent salary raise for these highly qualified teachers. This certainly doesn’t show me that our country is willing to compensate highly qualified teachers. Between the negation of this contract and our furlough days, I am bringing home 800.00 less per month!!!

How do we fairly and accurately measure teacher performance when so much of a student’s academic success depends on his or her home life, and the quality of the parenting he or she receives?

Tony Huegel (like “Bugle” except with an H)
Idaho Falls, Idaho

The guest says that there is nothing more important than “effective teachers”. I think he has it backwards. There is nothing more important than a motivated student. And frankly, A lot of students simply bored due to the banality of the standard cirruculum, and frankly, I would be too, if I were a teacher.

It is interesting that Wall Street talks about paying bonuses for RETENTION (regardless of performance), but teachers pay is always discussed in terms of PERFORMANCE, not retention or enticement (let alone the relative difficulty in measuring learning).

I guess I wonder…would employees sign up for end product pay if they were going up against a factory with great parts coming in on time and wonderful machinery, when their factory was getting broken parts, often coming in weeks late and machinery that worked half the time? I think too many factors, including absenteeism, student transfer, home life, student health etc…will affect student outcome and cannot easily be measured and accounted for within the data.

Every system that know of these days seems cumbersome, ineffective, expensive and basically failing.

Isolating any one piece of any system doesn’t seem enough. I hope someone in a decision making policy position is asking some of the following questions:

1. What skills and knowledge do students need
2. What students are learning these skills/this knowledge
4. How are they evaluated?

Just for starters, to simply target teachers, doesn’t make sense. Gotta look at the whole system, overwhelming yes!

Love the football analogy, practice and improve through experience. Place students into positions that they excel in based on performance and develop skills. You can apply this to any environment.

As a parent with two children in school it has been my experience that the talk about “teacher evaluation” and “pay for performance” misses the real issue. In our district, the administration, the teachers and the parents know who the incompetent teachers are. However, because of union seniority and “due process” rules, there is no attempt by the administration to discipline or dismiss these teachers. The issue is not “evaluation” but real consequences for poor performance. To those teachers who say it is unfair, I would suggest talking to a few folks who work in the private sector.

I fear you are missing the point: the flaw is in the educational system, so worrying about the issues you are discussing fails to address the problems. We have a system of teaching that ignores how people learn, ignores the latest research into the connection between emotion and thinking and learning, ignores how new skills or concepts are built. Teachers are very important and assessments are important and all the other issues are important, but until we create a system that is based on a real understanding of learning instead of a system based pretty much solely on teaching, we cannot improve education.

As a public high school teacher, I have to say that I am all for teachers being evaluated on the basis of standardized tests as long as those tests have been proven valid. If a test is invalid or proves to unreliable then that test should be dropped.

The #1 reason for a teacher getting a poor evaluation is because they are a teacher union activist who challenges the administrator!

There are too many variables to create a true pay for performance system based on student outcomes. Pay for performance could include some elements of student outcomes but must also measure teacher and administrative inputs as well as the learning environment. Outcomes depend on many variables. Most important is the student.

I am the daughter of a teacher and a mother of two children in public schools. I was also a consultant in higher education for over a decade. I believe in public education but until the unions are serious about evaluating teacher performace (which must include but not be disproportionately focused on test scores), rewarding effective teachers with greater pay, and eliminating tenure in K-12, education administrators have no flexibility to move out less effective teachers to cultivate stronger ones. Every teacher, principal, and parent in most schools know which teachers are most effective and which are not — let’s develop metrics to quantify that.

In response to the last caller…I would like to know who in our country would like their pay to be based on the actions of a group of children.

I know what blither and obfuscation sounds like, and that what I hear from Randi Weingarten. Whenever someone spends all their time saying we have to “look at” a list of 20 things that we have been looking at for the last 100 years, I have no confidence that any progress is really being made. Don’t tell me we can’t identify crummy teachers without some sort of tortured pseudo-analysis that never gets rid of incompetence in the classroom. The union protects its own at the expense of the student. How many generations of children have suffered because of the lack of serious effort to meaningfully evaluate teachers?

The irony between these shows being presented back to back is startling.
What if the bankers were held accountable in a similar way?
if the kids score well, can the teachers get half million dollar bonuses??

Pay for performance makes sense, but it rests on an underlying assumption that if you give people the incentive (more money) to perform better, then many will. The problem with this is that many, if not most, teachers don’t necessarily know what they need to do in order to perform better. I think most teachers want to do a better job, but they need help to figure out want they must do to improve. Your guest is absolutely right. Its not simply a matter of having the right kinds of carrots and sticks.

I would also like to see the local, state, and federal goverments do more promote home schooling so parents don’t have to send their children to poor performing public schools.

It is painful and exhausting to hear Randi go on and on.

She sounds whiny, desperate and pleading. Has she ever had a job outside of academia?

If there is a way to fix the education problems in this country it will have to be presented with more coherence than this unending list of random, vague blather.

She is doing an awful job of articulating which policy changes SPECIFICALLY would actually improve anything.

She offers a vague bunch of nonsense. Lord knows, for example, what the hell she means when she says ‘let’s look at what they did in New Haven’?

“Look at” ? What the hell do you do to enforce looking at things?

There she goes again!

Randi: “We need to look at the differentials”

Somebody help me understand what the hell she is talking about?

The teachers can’t do anything about a student who isn’t motivated to learn. How about bonuses for the students who do well? I’ve heard this is being done with some success.

Also, I feel our education system is set up completely wrong. We should not educate our children by age/grade, but by subject. They should be in a separate class for each subject, not related to their age but their ability, and move up as they have mastered that subject area. For example, moving a child on to 5th grade math when they can’t do 4th grade math just because they did well in the other subjects and turned age 10 is wrong for the child and the teacher.

As much as I support teachers I think they fail to grasp that the issues they are concerned about, politics, an annual review (that may be a ’snapshot’) a lack of fairness is exactly what people in the private sector experience all the time.

This is why teacher’s unions seem so out of touch to many people. The workplace is an imperfect place no matter what your job is.

Perhaps we should assign a ‘degree of difficulty’ to each child. If a teacher takes a classroom of high-risk students then this would qualify the teacher for a bonus. This may offer an incentive to more entrepreneurial teachers. Risk averse teachers would get easier classrooms but would not get the opportunity to earn these bonuses.

Just a thought.

What about teacher preparation as a component of this debate? Specifically, the inadequacy of the 1 semester internship in preparing young teachers for a career in the classroom. Wouldn’t a more protracted introduction to the classroom have a positive benefit for students (1-2 year apprenticeship under a master teacher, for example).

I hope that teacher pay does become performance-based. I do not think that test scores should be the one and only gauge of a teacher’s success, but they must be part a comprehensive evaluation. I am a learning specialist and work across a district with students of all ages and backgrounds and I see the sad truth that quality teachers are paid the same a mediocre teachers, solely based on the time they’ve spent teaching. Case and point, I currently work with 2 students, same public school district, same age…while one engages in thoughtful, creative, inspiring discussion of Beowulf, the other estimates how long it will take for her teacher to fall asleep after pressing play for a film version of Beowulf.

What about art and music teachers… no high stakes tests to adjust our pay?

My cousin taught school for a number of years, and says that parents were by far his main problem. Consider that it’s deep in our national psyche to actually dislike education and at least dislike, if not hate, the well-educated. Make that double for science and math.

Of course, I’m not saying that’s true of all, but imho, in general, we have far too little regard for education and the educated. (Our elders might remember how Adlai Stevenson was dismissed with the epithet “egghead”, although he might not have made a good president for other reasons.)

Consider that we have elected, to high office, people who are no smarter or more capable than the most-modest among us; a non-trivial proportion of the population thinks that high office does not need people of exceptional caliber. They sometimes elect just such people.

Some countries do respect teachers and the educated, but, afaik, their teaching is more by rote than true education in the best sense.

Unfortunately I did not hear all the discussion on On Point … however, the point about evaluating teachers is worthy of much greater attention especially given the training they have received in the past or are presently receiving in colleges and universities now …

I do not begin to understand how society can even contemplate evaluating its professional educators if they have not been comprehensively prepared to teach ALL children. By ALL I mean those at all levels of ability. I know from my own experience as an K-12 educator and teacher of teachers, the vast majority of teachers are never prepared to teach the population of higher ability/creatively advanced children (g/t) in our schools countrywide. Differentiation of the curriculum is predominantly focused on the disabled/disorder child. This must be dealt with …

Great show!
2 points:
1. re: “professional development, teacher evaluation,” etc. I am a former English teacher from South Kingstown, RI. The English Department was made up of totally dedicated, committed, intelligent people. I don’t feel these individuals need this. Furthermore, putting “all” the responsibility on the teachers for the student’s education, I feel you’re doing a disservice to the student – I strongly believe that students (and their parents) need to take on MUCH MORE RESPONSIBILITY for their own education.
2. re: the curriculum. Why must I force a student who, for example, could take apart the engine in my car and put it all back together again without any left over parts, to read the book Of Mice and Men. This novel, in my opinion, has nothing to offer this student. Why was I not allowed to assign an auto repair manual for this student to read rather than what was “required.” Reading novels, plays, etc. of this nature, in my opinion, turns off a student to reading. We teachers want to turn on the students to reading!

Why is Yale-educated Tom Ashbrook saying “incentivize” on a show on education?

I think uniforms, like those used throughout the Caribbean and other parts of the world, are smart. Of course, abercrombie, ae, and others would go out of business…clothes are soooo important in this culture i school. It’s a distraction and a money thing, of ocurse. Also, as a teacher and a mother, I really think, after about 6th grade, students would learn better if boys and girls, female and male were seperated for classes. It’s almost impossible for many students to concentrate with a lot of the drama of the sexes going on. I believe this and I am very open minded but I have seen it more and more. Also, I agree with the person saying seperate by subject matter, yup makes sense, biggest problem in the schools is this is the first generation we are seeing raised without a mom and dad at home . A baby sitter raised these kids, sorry but it makes a HUGE difference. That takes us right back to money now doesn’t it, the greed god.

I have 2 kids in public schools in a city with a large population of ELL and reduced-lunch students, and I definitely DON’T want teacher pay to be linked to students’ scores. This would only further emphasize teaching to the test, which doesn’t give teachers the incentive or time to use a creative approach to the curriculum. Kids learn best when their teachers are engaged by the material, and when the material is presented in hands-on, creative ways.

BUT if, as Randi W. says, the teachers are looking at student improvement over the course of one school year, and looking at what works and doesn’t work with their students, MAYBE the teachers will conclude that the workbooks/worksheets test-based approach does not work to educate kids, and will return to their own more creative ideas, in spite of the state’s pressure to test, test, test.

I trust my kids’ teachers to teach well and creatively more than I trust the test-makers and number-crunchers with my kids’ education.

This is obviously and infinitley complex problem, but I think far too much is expected of teachers. Give a mediocre teacher a class of students who expect to behave and, mostly, expect to learn — who have the social/psychological skills and parent support — and something at least OK will happen. If you don’t deliver those kids to the classroom, it is unreasonable to expect good results (although some successes have occurred, there seems to be little success in generalizing them. I don’t know what the answer is, but I think the question is not being addressed.

FOCUS: Rating Teachers and Improving Learning

I think that much of the discussion on today’s (1/26/10) program misses the most important contributors to poor teaching & learning performance.
The heart of the problem is not the teachers, it’s the parents, the living environments of their kids, and in some schools, inadequate and overcrowded classrooms.

Government can change the last two contributors to poor performance, but it’s the parents that must take most responsiblity for the first two.

Almost all children raised in violent, dis-functional families and who live in drug infested, crime-ridden environments will fail to perform well in school, especially in the higher grades starting at Grade 7. Poor performance is a symptom of a major societal problem.

I recommend that On Point present a broadcast the addresses the issues raised above. Sincerely, Richard

As a professional architect I was taught that I should never say that I am guaranteeing a particular result (like that a building won’t leak). No self respecting, liability conscious professional would. We perform our job in keeping with the “professional standard” that is expected of us. The world is full of too many variables outside of our control to promise a particular result.

If you want teachers to guarantee a particular result you have to give them the authority to control all the variables. . .Are we willing to cede total control of a child to our teachers? If not parents need to be responsible for the education of their children. Teachers are just there to help along the way.

I can’t believe someone would evaluate a teacher based on a few hours of observation, let alone tests.

I can’t believe first graders have homework. Pretty much anything they do at that age is a learning experience — oh, maybe excluding sitting in front of a television. If homework is a means of ensuring parental involvement — well, some parents can’t.

The public school education in K-6 in my experience was opposite of private school education I had later, but I wouldn’t advocate either. In K-6 the teachers were across-the-board same; personality and approach differences were very slight; we did everything by rote, with no homework, which meant lots of time to read in an exploratory mode. In private school, the competitive domination of our time made learning seem an obligation on the way to growing up, something to graduate from, not a solid starting point.

Of course everyone has to focus on what works, individually and en masse. But how…

I’m simply amazed by the stupidity of those trying to fix education.

Anyone who’s seen modern american classrooms in action knows the main problem is the average students attitude. The most important thing to young kids is impressing their peers and the opposite sex, and this invloves non-conformity, disruption, and not looking “nerdy” or intelligent in any way.

The two easiest, cheapest, and perhaps most effective changes to the american classroom… changes that would have an immediate and radical, positive effect… are gender segregation of students and a forced dress code, establishing a school uniform.

The school uniform would obliterate much of the cliquishness and drive to non-conformity of students. Studies have shown this to be effective. It becomes much more difficult for any one student to be perceived as superior to any other, except through intellectual prowess in the classroom. A major distraction (coolness), is removed from the formula, and in the long run, students would benefit as human beings by developing real personalities rather than merely being obsessed by the “image of personality.” Parents would also benefit by not having to shell out ridiculous sums on a hip, new wardrobe every few months.

The segregation of classrooms by gender also has obvious benefits. Adolescents would be relieved of the constant drive to impress the opposite sex. They would likewise be relieved of the constant, adolescent obsession to observe the opposite sex, at the expense of concentrating on classroom discussion and materials.

These two simple changes would result in students being less likely to percieve the classroom primarily as a social environment, opening the path to perception of school as a place designed for study and betterment of one’s mind, without all of the obvious, adolescent distractions.

Researchers have identified these two simple changes as highly effective and inexpensive methods for improving the classroom, yet the policies aren’t instituted. Fanatical adherence to the concept of individualty is partly responsible, when in reality and as stated above, “in the long run, students would benefit as human beings by developing real personalities rather than merely being obsessed by the “‘image of personality.’”

New schools or bussing need not occur to segregate classroom by gender. Simply segregate the classrooms themselves to gain the benefits delineated above. Kids can still gain the benefits of becoming socialized to the opposite sex by leaving lunchrooms, playgrounds, and gym classes co-ed.

For America’s sake people, DO THIS!

Two things that I believe are critically important to learning, which is what we are interested in — not test performance, and the evaluation of teachers. (1) Students have to be responsible for their own learning. Many talk around this but don’t hit the target. Over the last 2-3 decades, we took away most if not all consequences for the student who refuses to work and interferes with the learning of others. (2) Skills can be tested and tracked, even within one year. However, learning cannot be tested and tracked in the same way — maybe not at all.

Another factor not usually noted is that teaching a first or second grader is quite different from teaching a tenth or eleventh grader. Evaluation of teachers of different grade levels needs to be different; one would not evaluate a neurosurgeon for the same skills as he would evaluate a family practitioner.

“Reforming” education simply needs to follow the human resources model of the the private sector. Reward the top 10% with raises and promotions, treat the middle 80% of competent and dedicated employees with fairness and respect, and actively weed out the bottom 10%.

If union rules prevent you from rewarding the high performers and firing the low performers, the high performers will eventually move on to better positions, and it doesn’t take a math teacher to tell you what that will do to your workforce distribution over time.

Totally agree that Washington should stay out of the mix!

I didn’t mean to hold rank & file teachers responsible for every new educational trend. Most of these unhelpful ‘reforms’ have been promulgated from afar and imposed through unfunded mandates. Are teachers paid to deal with all the IEPs? I doubt it.
No one educational approach will work for all learners. Families need to able to choose what’s right for them. But most have no choice, instead they are assigned to a government-run school. Wouldn’t it be nice if teachers could answer only to parents and to their colleagues? Can’t we find a way to combine the best of public and private schools?

First of all…language evolves whether we like it or not. I also heard “most importantly”. Who cares at this point?
I am a former teacher and work in a teacher supply store so I hear SO much from the point of view of parents and schools. I wish I had written it all down. The bottom line: Frustration from teachers with regard to the testing; too much teaching to the test. Frustration from parents: Too much teaching to the test.
Teaching is about skills, of course, but it is so much more about engaging the student. Lighting a fire. Telling stories. One listener talked about the teacher training. I think (since I went through it) that a teacher really learns on the job. And many are not cut out for it but they don’t realize that in the “training”. However, they stay on because this is their job. Those are the ones that yell. Or who hand out questions from a text book that was read the night before. There are plenty of them, sad to say.

And the same goes for flexibility. Both sides feel the lack of it. Teachers feel that they can’t be spontaneous and leave the curriculum.
One mother said to me last week that a simple request to have her autistic 8th grader sit at the back of the room (to prevent someone poking him in the back and to allow him to concentrate better) was denied. She is now home schooling. Her older son was not challenged in his 9th grade year and he is now in a charter school in New Haven and doing beautifully.
These and many other examples of my own…(I have two teenagers) lead me to wonder if actually listening to students might help us go in a more effective direction. It makes sense that students should be able to give feedback on their experience with a teacher. And then have the teacher look at these comments and learn from them.

There is a problem with the method of teaching, we need to look at the preschool age group. Studies have shown children with preschool experience do better. Take a look at a Montessori education. It is the child who is the “teacher” and the adult is a guide. The Montessori method follows (beginning at 3 years old) the child’s needs and desires to learn which builds a foundation for a life long learner that is self motivated.
In Hartford CT we have 3 Montessori magnet schools which are bridging the socioeconomic and racial gap and producing responsible contributing members of society.
I think the teachers are not responsible 100% for a students progress, but that the student and parents play a part as well.
We need to invest in QUALITY preschool education, I would recommend the Montessori method, IT WORKS!

Before we can rate teachers on performance we need to establish what outcomes we expect from our educational system. A standardized test score, while useful, is not the appropriate measure. We need to think more strategically about the skills and abilities we all need to be succesful in this world. For instance: exercising your fingers and thumbs while watching an electronic screen are of limited use without critical thinking ability.

We also need to establish what inputs the public, students, and parents need to provide to the system. Trying to simplify the issue by focusing on teachers misses the problem entirely. This is a system and all parts need to be efficient and effective.

I think the focus on pay for teacher performance is a misguided attempt to squeeze more out of fewer tax dollars. It is not linked to any strategy to improve educational outcomes. At best it is a political ploy to undermine confidence in the public educational system.

So the question should not be “what do we expect from teachers?” It should be “what do we expect from our public education system and what is my contribution to making that happen?”

Here is what Hartford is doing which I think is a fabulous opportunity for CT. Check out the website http://www.magneteducation.org/.

Now it is not the time for evaluating teachers. What should be evaluated is the educational system that produces teachers who do not have full command of their respective disciplines. We need Pedagogical Institutes where individuals interested in teaching acquire both the knowledge and the skills to communicate what they have learned to the students. Nothing can be gained by evaluating teachers with inadequate training who happen to be in a classroom only by virtue a degree but whose knowledge in regard to the subject they are supposed to teach is unsatisfactory. To do so would be unjust to the teachers and would perpetuate the dismal state of affairs in the present educational system.

JP,

Well stated. Eliminating visible signs of inequality, whether they be economic, social, racial, or sexual would be an improvement to the learning environment. Encouraging competion from an intellectual perspective could possibly be acheived.

However ther are still plenty of non-conformists that are disruptive in order to get attention. These behaviors are often rewarded through negative reinforcement and reinforced through our culture. Parents, teachers and administrators would need to learn ways to deal with these situations. There also needs to be some flexibility to allow for creative ways to learn and teach within the conformist model.

I missed half the show, so apologies if this was discussed.

NPR had a show within the last 18 months that reviewed a study showing that the most important factor in improving student performance was the quality of the teacher. It was a long term study (maybe half a dozen years) of several school districts. Classroom size, socio-economic conditions and race were all significantly less important. Maybe someone knows about it.

I’m sure there are lots of studies, but this was particularly interesting because it was apparent that this was not the result the people performing the study wanted to see. That’s an impression I got, by the way.
It’s also consistent with what I’ve heard from people who participate in charter schools (public schools who don’t have to live under the guidelines of a school committee). They told me that the factor that makes the greatest impact on performance is the ability to fire bad teachers. And from my own kid’s experience, there are a lot of teachers that should never be in front of a classroom. But that’s predictable given how hard it is to get rid of them.

Let me go out on a limb here. The teacher’s unions will never agree to a mechanism for firing bad teacher’s that isn’t so onerous that almost no one will use it. Inotherwords, they may agree to some method for firing teachers, but it will be so time consuming, require so much paperwork, and take so long that administrators will simply do what they always do – let those teachers retire in place.

So, I’m all for innovative ways to incent teachers, new tools, and new methods (not too thrilled with the standardized tests, though). But until you can get rid of bad teachers, you’re condemning students that are stuck with these, to a lousy education. And it amazes me that progressives will sacrifice education to protect the idea of the teacher’s union.

Connecticut (Hartford’s) magnate school program http://www.magneteducation.org/ cited by Jennifer Kahn looks great, addressing big gaps (minority and class), and providing free buses (sometimes an hour or more), and schools from pre-K through 12. And I like the Montessori idea of letting the child take the lead. It makes sense to me that a child from age 3 can “learn to learn,” can expect a rewarding interactive educational experience — and at least complain to a parent if that is not forthcoming. If there is real school choice (not waiting lists, period), then a child thus programmed in his/her expectations can lead the community to provide what is needed.
I believe Massachusetts has been moving towards providing preschool education for all for a few years. In the current economic climate, it is surely more needed, and more of a stretch.
I don’t think teacher education should be largely about excelling in this field or that. Why? Fields change so quickly that the zeal to keep abreast, the enthusiasm a child can bring to learning, would seem more important. If a teacher is always learning, so will the children. If a teacher comes as a “package,” no matter how complete, the children’s advantage in openness will seem like a stricture. The child who says “incentivize” rather than “motivates with rewards and punishments” will not try out his vocabulary next time if the teacher is perching on his high horse.
Why do teachers go into teaching? Above, someone says many don’t really find out till after their internships that they aren’t cut out for it. Hmm. I suspect many become educators because of shining examples, their own teachers, or some of them. If they went into it because it seemed secure, maybe that needs to be changed.
I think a lot of the behavior disorders might be due to marijuana smoke in apartment buildings, just based on my own experience of its tornado effect (lasting many hours) on my reasoning and memory even a few floors removed. But a child wouldn’t know except that there is an unreliability to his or her mind, “probably my fault.” Oh, there are problems, yes.

Look,
In order to hire and retain good teachers, kid’s attitudes have to be addressed.

Good teachers, by definition, are people who have other career options open to them due to their exceptional qualities. If teaching young people proves unpallatable, why would people with more rewarding options stick around?

The answer is: only a very few exceptional people would stick with it without an improvement in the attitudes of the kids themselves.

If you don’t believe this to be true, then you have seen the average modern american classroom in action.

Read my post above for two easy, cheap methods to improve the classroom in a way that will help us to retain our exceptional teachers… and perhaps even help to make exceptional teachers out of some whose hearts are not fully devoted now.

Correction:

Look,
In order to hire and retain good teachers, kid’s attitudes have to be addressed.

Good teachers, by definition, are people who have other career options open to them due to their exceptional qualities. If teaching young people proves unpallatable, why would people with more rewarding options stick around?

The answer is: only a very few exceptional people would stick it out without an improvement in the attitudes of the kids themselves.

If you don’t believe this to be true, then you haven’t seen the average modern american classroom in action.

Read my post above for two easy, cheap methods to improve the classroom in a way that will help us to retain our exceptional teachers… and perhaps even help to make exceptional teachers out of some whose hearts are not fully devoted now.

We can dramatically improve public education in America, but we have to change the rules to take advantage of the wealth and brainpower around us.

1. Parents should have the power to choose the right public school for their child.
2. The public money devoted to that child’s education should follow the child to the chosen school.
3. Government needs to make the rules and select suitable accrediting bodies to make sure that every public school meets reasonable standards.
4. Parents should receive useful feedback on how their students’ are progressing, and how each school is performing.

This system would release the kind of entrepreneurial energy that drives progress. Groups of teachers can launch their own schools; high-performing charter management organizations can grow from dozens to hundreds or thousands of schools; innovators can introduce new teaching methods and technologies. Of equal importance, schools that don’t get it right will lose students and undertake real reform or disappear.

In 10 years we would have a rich and vibrant public education sector, and the teaching profession would earn the respect it desires and deserves.

Sure, there may be teachers who are not performing up to standards, but what about parents’ responsibilities? I’ve seen kids sent to school dirty, sleepy and unfed. How is a teacher to correct those deficits on an on-going basis? Is the teacher responsible for those problems? Of course not, yet the kids are expected to be in the classroom, taking in new information and behaving in appropriate ways–ways not taught at home, by the way. This isn’t true for all kids; I’m not saying that. But, there is a significant portion of the population of parents who should never have had children, who themselves are addicted to alcohol or drugs, who are mothers who used those substances while pregnant and now their kids are the ones who are out of control in the classroom. I’m not a teacher. Just another parent. And, my kids are suffering because of other parents and their lack of responsibility and training. Some teachers are at fault, too, but additional training for teachers isn’t going to make up for the deficits of a huge segment of the student population–not unless we get a lot of extra help in the classroom beyond just one teacher. I don’t see that happening. It’s all very discouraging.

I am a high school teacher and I don’t really know where to begin. I have taught for 16 years and for each of those years I have jumped through every hoop that anyone has set for me in the hopes of improving test scores. Unfortunately, test scores tell us absolutely nothing about the ability of our teachers. And, until students are held accountable in some way for the outcome of these tests, scores will never reflect the true academic abilities of our students. I am especially troubled by the fact that some believe merit pay would make teachers try harder, do a better job, or increase student knowledge. I have heard that teachers need to work smarter not harder – fine. Tell me how I am to go into the home and convince parents that their child’s education is important enough for them to insist their child achieve. Tell me how to make a child’s test score go up who refuses to even bring a pencil to class, who refuses to do any thing in the classroom but disrupt the learning process. Finally, tell me how every student, regardless of IQ or mental ability is to perform at the same level as those students not hindered by these disabilities. I love teaching, I just wish I got to do more of it!

Terry Phelps has the last say and I must say, it is the best. Right on Terry, most teachers do wish they had more time to simply, teach!

I enjoyed the discussions of banking and teaching in today’s show. Here’s an idea that relates to both:

If we taxed a $100,000,000 banker at 90%, we could pay 900 teachers $100,000 each, and the banker would still have $10,000,000 left to spend at his or her discretion.

Income redistribution like this would force restructuring within industries and institutions that cater to the super-rich, and over the long term, our nation would reap the cultural and economic benefits of an invigorated, better-educated population.

In an earlier career, I worked closely with school systems as a behavior specialist for special education programs. Years later, after working as a MHMRSAS Case Manager, I left and was in a position to perhaps become a teacher. But, after having many conversations with many friends who are teachers, together with my experiences in working with school administrators/districts, I decided against such a move.

In my district, teachers spend most of their time in SOL preparedness mode (our version of the “No Child Left Behind” standards testing), and this is at the exclusion of really delving into subjects deeply and conceptually, and at the expense of thoroughness. Principals spend most of their time appeasing parents so they won’t get into hot water with school-board administrators. Parents have a keen sense of this dynamic and these politics, so they are very demanding, not in advocacy of better education of their child, necessarily, but in wanting to know how much the principals are going to put pressure on the teachers to make them compensate for parents being unable to participate (for any number of an array of reasons).

Also, in theory, I am a firm believer in inclusion. But, often the reality of inclusion is that although my district requires each classroom have an aide to assist the teacher, special needs students either are the ones to suffer from inadequate resources that have to do with not enough planning time, unsophisticated strategies (due in part to aides being unskilled, minimum-wage employees with no benefits), as well as administrations not wanting to properly support the teacher-parent relationships; or, the inclusion classrooms compensate the other way and non-special needs students are left improperly challenged.

Often, teachers who speak a second language or have some special experiences with behavioral issues/psychology, etc., are dumped on and asked to essentially compensate for administrations that don’t have systemic solutions dealing with many of the issues in modern society. Principals are inclined to assign more students with behavior problems to male teachers than female teachers; tenured teachers (as well as teachers who are popular to parents) usually receive classrooms of students with better academic track records and fewer behavioral issues than do new teachers; and, teachers are continually asked to do more and more with less support from administrators and parents, not to mention their salaries often do not increase incentive to improve skills, take on more responsibility, etc.

Evaluation of teachers has got to be an ongoing process with regular supervision meetings; administrators have got to provide better on-the-job training and skill development for teachers, as well as create environments that make peer relationships among teachers less competitive and more of a mentoring/sharing nature. Also, practicums at the end of schooling usually amount to a six-month, student-teaching situation; three months observing an experienced teacher and three months in the driver’s seat being observed by the same teacher. I don’t feel this is adequate, generally, before giving a teacher his/her own classroom.

Here’s an idea: The entire staff, including administrators, aides, etc. of a high performing school (preferably from a wealthy suburb) changes place with the entire staff of a school on the “failing” list. The exchange should last for two years. See what happens. Yes. I know this experiment can never happen.

While earning my Master’s in Education, I learned that there are basically four things needed for student success. Three can be legislated: the school’s administration (certain training, expereince, goal setting, etc), the school building (adequate bathrooms, teacher-student ratio, food), and the teachers (credentialed, subject matter expertise via college credits, other training). However, the fourth leg can’t be touched legislatively: the parent(s). One can have the best school building, a great principal, super teachers, but if the parent(s) are not engaged (helping with homework, instilling love of learning, attending programs, etc.), then the student’s success is severely hampered. As a teacher, I’d hate to have my job dependent on the success of a student if their parents are not involved and helping their child succeed.
Last point: merit pay should be tied to many things, but making AP get additional pay just for teaching should not be a given. Earning a doctorate or other high education goal in the subject (be it math, English, etc.) should provide the stipend to encourage lifelong learning. Remember, whatever get POSITIVELY rewarded will, in the end, be what gets done, so be careful…

It’s the state testing mandates and running of schools like business that have destroyed the educational system. The Teachers are the whipping posts for the corrupt Administration and Politicians on one end, and lazy good-for-nothing dead-beat Parents on the other end. We need less math, less science, more Music, more Humanities (Greek Classical teaching), a shorter, more condensed day, higher teacher salaries, and above all else, a letter sent out to all Parents to “Get off their dead-butts, and stop expecting the schools to raise their little brats for them! It’s quality, not quantity, and involvement, not mandates folks. Your little “Johnny” and “Sally” aren’t special, in fact their disrespectful little slobs. YOU have to make them special. You can start by telling your employers you want more money, and less time at work. That will free you up to do the real job you have: RAISING YOUR KIDS! And it’s less, not more, that needs to be done in the schools, with exception of pay. Teachers need a 50% raise effectively immediately across the board. They educate the future of this nation. There is no job more important! (I also have nothing to do with the Educational System. I’m just a realist)

No one deserves guaranteed lifetime employment.

Not one Public School teacher has “guaranteed lifetime employment.” Most of them spend 100,000 dollars to get 40,000 dollar a year jobs. I wouldn’t be a teacher. They get no money, and no respect. You’re lucky anyone would do that job at all!

Two points on point, On Point:

1. President Weingarten’s main point about establishing a system for feedback, development, and improvement for individual teachers as well as articulating and replicating successful practice models is a laudatory cause. Teachers go into classrooms each day with their necks on the line, standing often before a hostile audience. Facing that each morning inspires the desire to be good. Separate that cause from the link to pay (which is at a deplorable standard in this country) and you have a good idea.

2. The problem with this conversation is it’s implication that fixing teachers is the magic bullet for righting the woes of our nation’s schools. The conversation about education will never be substantive until we start talking about addressing the organization and management of schools. The model with which we work is flawed. It belies educational research and best practice as well as all we now know about brain development and function with respect to learning. We rely on individual teachers and their students to shoulder the burden of that systematic flaw, and that is why teachers burn out and people complain about schools.

I could go on for days. I am a 25+ year public school veteran and cannot believe the ignorance that is out there. Charter schools are the answer? I don’t think so–look at the attrition rate of their students–how many end up back at their “failing” public schools? Look at the far fewer numbers of special ed and English language-learners in charter schools. Let’s imagine for a moment that the public schools have been done away with and replaced by charters. I guarantee you we would see the same testing results we see now. Why? Because socio-economics of the family has the greatest effect on standardized tests. That study that was done in NY that supposedly proved that the most important element in student success is a “highly qualified” teacher? Did they control for every single variable that affects students? I highly doubt it. Incidentally, that study was conducted by a Harvard prof who has never spent day 1 as a teacher in a public school classroom. I’d like to see him teach for a year in a public school and then get back to us. It all comes back to the family and parents…you don’t have to be rich, but if you value education, shut the damn TV off , make sure homework is done, teach your kids to respect adults, model a work ethic and your own habit of reading, then you will see movement in grades and test scores. We have it so backwards in this country. ANd those studies “proving” how poorly American students fare on tests when compared to Asian and European students? What they don’t tell you is that in other parts of the world, students have been through at least two ability sorting processes before they ever get to high school. Meanwhile, in our democracy, everyone is still in school together by high school, regardless of ability. Apples are not being compared to apples, folks.

As for “race to the top” money? It would probably cost most suburban schools more money than they would gain–the strings attached are ridiculous. In my district, the estimate that it would maybe gain us $6000…plus here in MA, the “memo of understanding” re this program was distributed on 1/04/10, and a response was required by 01/13/10, hardly enough time to sort through the implications both for staffing and costs. A blank check, in other words. So no thank you. When I think of the tens of millions of MA dollars spent on MCAS to show us that kids in Lexington perform better than kids in Lynn, does anyone wonder what that money could have been spent on that really could have improved schools? Of course not. What a sad, misguided state of affairs.

I couldn’t agree more Ruth. The US needs to look to the German Educational system (a system that the US still subsidizes as a legacy of reconstruction after WWII there btw; bring that money home, WE need it!). Most kids are not College material, and never will be. Stop fooling yourselves. Most need to learn how to make a good living with their hands! They can’t all be bright stars in Academic fields, but many can become pragmatic, hands on, genius’. We have WAY too many college graduates as-is anyway, and most “ground floor” innovation has never come from the “educated” class, it’s come from smart people who work with their hands; “Mother of invention” and so-forth! We need to get away from this idea that one can only be a valuable member of society if they go to a university, and can do calculation in there sleep. It’s just not true!

No one said that fixing teachers is a magic bullet. Well, I didn’t read all the posts, so maybe someone was dumb enough to say this – but I doubt it. And I think most would agree that many parents are part of the problem. And I also think there are a number of potential improvements in curriculum, understanding how people learn, maybe testing, etc.

But getting rid of bad teachers and schools is the baseline. Good luck in starting anything new with teachers that have checked out or feel threatened. If a private school isn’t delivering, it disappears. I think the same happens with charter schools (at least the teacher’s union will work awfully hard to make that happen). However, if a non-charter public school fails, it goes on and rarely are the bad teacher’s dropped.

My kids were lucky to be in public schools where the teachers were, with a few exceptions, very good. These are also schools that are rated the top in our state. I think it’s tragic that other kids are stuck with overpriced (~$10K per pupil per year) schools dominated by a union that very eloquently says how much they care, but when viewing their actions, is more into self-preservation.

Sounds like Ben doesn’t believe in jobs! Either he is wealthy or unemployed and bitter. Parents are important in the lives of their children, this being said, you could all help produce a higher quality student by taking away the cell phone, mandating homework before pleasures, driving as privilege, respect for fellow humans, especially the person standing in front of that classroom every day trying to teach you so you can have a good future. I substitute teach at various schools in my area, rest assured people, those teachers are not paid enough for the myriad of issues in the school today. Getting back to the core principle of education should include parental involvement and community support. The school is NOT a baby sitting service!

With physicians, even though the professionalism is bolstered with years of internship/residencies, there are still market forces that favor this doctor not that. How many parents/children can vote with their feet in terms of which school, which teacher? And then the competitiveness that works to yield success does not work when you’re dealing with unions, government employees, or a unionized profession.
And we have these assumptions, entrenched assumptions. Higher education has to persuade a lot of people to pay a huge amount of money for college degrees. Is it worth it? We all know the mess the brightest and best have made, using all their mathematical savvy in creating derivatives that go up in smoke. And we are part of the smoke.
I totally agree with xxxxx that people without the kinds illusions created by having shelled out maybe $100,000 for a college degree, hard-boiled Americans, the “show-me” people, these need a certain kind of education to make sure they don’t consider themselves less than. They aren’t likely to be in research institutions, but they could be. There is a vast amount that K-12 can deliver, and people can pick up from there. Higher education is not exactly oversold, but the exact mandate and mission of public “free” education always needs focusing. I agree that parental modeling of good work ethic and reading habits go a long way. Children will respect teachers if they respect their parents, and part of that is parental respect for each other and for their children. No one can hand over parenting to Sesame Street or the teacher. That’s for sure.

There was a comment about superintendents mediating between student and parent, and someone said the relationships direct to the teacher should be nurtured, rather than insulated. I take no stand on this. My own experience with several years of afterschool programs at a project (and summer programs, and taking children here and there) was that there is a big potential role for mentoring. Big Brothers/Big Sisters and retired citizens organizations were doing this sort of thing. Even under Bush I heard this was considered a good thing. It’s good to expose citizens like me to what teachers are up against. Parents didn’t uniformly know enough English to be able to help. If they had jobs, there was less time to help the children integrate into the culture and community. If they didn’t have jobs, they didn’t have the resources or mostly the will to do those same things. It fell to people outside the sort of ghetto, people like me, to show them they could go here and there and behave appropriately and feel a part of it. That the world was not their enemy, in short.
I was thwarted in that the mentors or whatever we were had some contact with parents, but not with schools, and the parents weren’t able to be liaisons. One visit I made to a school felt like a fiasco, like someone hadn’t been able to screen me out. I didn’t have the rights a parent would have, and the parents didn’t get the information I needed. So it was very frustrating.
But there are potentially an army of retired people willing to assist. Nobody has mentioned mentoring here, but tt doesn’t seem like the school systems or teachers’ unions are really focused on integrating that kind of help.

I find the teacher who called in to discuss “lower” students very offensive. As a former IEP (Individualized Education Program) student, to suggest that these students some how are not equal to other students or un-wanted is extremely degrading to students with special needs. Many students with special needs need help in only one area of their education, while they excel miles above other students in other areas.

I’ve faced and fought this prejudice for so called educators for my entire. Having a learning disability does not make you less likely to be a excellent student, or a productive member of society.

You think teachers in Asia are simply more exceptional than American teachers?

No.

The primary reason Asian students outperform American student’s is attitude.

Work on ways to improve student’s attitude, starting with the cheap, easy solutions of gender segregation and school uniforms (see above post).

Improved student attitude will help teachers immensely, as well as help to retain highly qualified teachers.

Perhaps Mr. Obama should look to his own private education in seeking policy reform. How many times was he standardized tested? How did the school use these to both shape his education and to “reward” his teachers? My children have had the privilege of private education which is deep, rich, challenging and educative. None of their teachers is “credentialed.” Instead they are committed, intelligent, well educated themselves, have a subject they love, respect students, and want to share what they know in environments that utterly support this.

We are creating even more inequality in the U.S. by standardizing the many and allowing the elite to continue to be educated.

The problems in public education are many. Many models of solutions exist. However, applying models from the economy to education (carrots/sticks, incentives, even the model of measuring outputs, etc.) fail to understand that the (flawed) model of the one is utterly inappropriate to the other. For example, while economy may seek efficiency, education is an utterly inefficient process. Watch out for Gradgrinds and M’Choakumchilds, and read Alfie Kohn’s “Punished by Rewards.” Solutions are really much more simple than paying companies to test more (I see Obama’s “race to the top” as little more than this – little substance, no depth).

I also believe that this conversation is too limited around a teacher/parent accountability. Let’s be realistic – there will always be bad teachers and good teachers and bad parents and good parents. And there will be students who succed under both bad teachers and bad parents. So where is the solution?
I read some interviews by Arnie Duncan and there were some thoughts I liked and some I didn’t. For example, there are no national standards – how can you then ensure that each state has equal quality? I am not sure about the curriculum too, but I think that different districts or states can decide what to include or what to eliminate. So some districts cut number of PE and art classes to concentrate on tests, some don’t. So we are unequal at a starting point.
Looking at my childrent I am amazed how childish the education is in the beginning – grades 1-3 and then in high school there seems to be rude awakening for some students, because now they are required to compete to get into college. Also, I am amazed at how low the expectations are for creating good working habits. Homework is given in flying leaflets, teachers don’t teach students to keep them in folders or maybe have a notebook. The answer that I get from my children’s teachers is – well, you as a parent need to teach that – and while I do that – isn’t this me correcting a fundamental flaw with the system? As a parent I constantly feel that all my energy goes into this – teaching my children working habits that I believe should be taught at the school.
Also, communication between parents and teachers is not sufficient. Scheduling time to talk with teachers is a massive undertaking for me, since they are always “busy”. ANyway, I can go on and on, but before we talk about merit pay and longer days let’s look at the overall standards, curriculum, daily processes and address them.

If teachers are as helpless to improve the skills of poor and ESL kids as they make it sound then they should be paid as babysitters – not instructors.

I would like to point out that OnPoint forums often revolve around politics, certain topics that come up repeatedly, and so a group of people develop in these forums who sometimes can take a particular slant, a new book, or a particular grouping of guests, and create a discussion that really seems to move the subject along, with many sides advocated, defended, explained, and many sets of experience presented and used, many sorts of references to other sources, articles, and so on.
In my opinion, education is a subject that could accumulate a sort of working group of forum members who could expect a certain level of participation and a certain vitality to a discussion, maybe make some real headway in tandem with the efforts of the OnPoint producers to bring guests from all perspectives.
I could be way off. I’m sure not a producer, but I’d like to see education presented more than very occasionally. It is that important. And like politics, it involves everyone.
It might seem like a “don’t step in it” topic. But OnPoint forums get rolling with religion and politics without getting squeamish, so I suppose the sensitivities of everyone can stand up to further confrontations on education, on air and here.

Joy’s comment is part of the problem: Parents expect teachers to do everything for students. It isn’t the teacher’s job to teach the students that they need a folder; a parent should bring them to school with this assumption. The more time away from content, the worse for students and their teachers.

In general, miracles are expected from teachers that are not expected from doctors!
Here are some disturbing facts:

1) 1/4 of American kids live in dire poverty.
2) Most of these kids come from broken homes with addiction problems and parents in prison.
3) These kids have terrible nutrition.
4) These kids suffer terrible abuse.
5) These kids don’t have access to books at home.
6) These children are not read to at night.
7) Their parents have to work two to three jobs to make ends meet.
Many of these kids are born to teenagers who have no idea how to raise a child.

So, how is a teacher supposed to overcome all of that?

Ah, yes: The teachers are lazy and just want to collect their check–all 35,000 bucks a year!

The problem with merit pay is that all subjects are not tested. How will those teachers have their pay evaluated? Another concern is that some schools in California have a high percentage of English Language Learners who have have not mastered the language. They will not perform at the same level as students of predominantly English speaking schools. Our district places English Learners at schools with the staff most qualified to help them. It affects state testing performance levels. We have a problem in California that is not being addressed by the federal government. If you want to legislate, you should be prepared to accept financial responsibility for doing so. Otherwise you are discriminating against students with different needs.

Basically teachers are trainers. As all trainers know for any sport, activity, or occupation each individual may or may not have the natural abilities to be excellent at the chosen activity. When trainers are paid to produce performers, athletes, musicians etc., they usually get to choose the subjects with which they work. A high level athletic coach is graded and paid on winning and on his/her team’s performance. However, at all those levels the coach also selects the people that will be trained. He is not only involve with the training but the selection of the trainee as well. Same for a movie director, a music teacher, and many other lowere profile careers that utilize aptitude tests for placement.

Even an animal trainer picks the animals that are trained and quickly can tell whether or not a particular breed of dog, bird or cat is capable of being trained for the chosen task.

Therefore, it is a little disturbing to expect a teacher that has 30 plus kids thrown into a room with no choice on there selection to have expectations that are mandated from miles away. What has to be looked at fairly is the development of pre and post tests that are accurate and fair that can measure a students growth and knowledge. The assessments have to have meaning and consequences to the student. Many of these mandated state tests, the student has very little real ownership. All these results are closely scrutinized and a collection of the student body really doesn’t see what is in it for them, except maybe a ice cream party the school throws if they do well. Therefore, a pre assessment and a post assessment both with consequences for the student is the only real way to determine if any knowledge, skill, growth was achieved.

This still does not take out the factor that some students learn very slow and some learn rather quick. But it least looks at a way that all teachers can be evaluated as every subject can prpduce a before and after assessment.

Connecting teacher salary to test scores will make student placements into classes a managing nightmare for Principals. I don’t want that student. . . I want that one. Teachers will be less likely to want to collaborate and share students (i.e. Intervention teachers, resource, lit. tutors). If my pay is attached to student performace I will keep all my students to myself so that I can take full responsibiliy for their test scores. If a teacher is already high performing. . . showing progress will be even harder! I am not sure this idea of linking teacher pay to test scores has been completely thought out. Education starts at home—-we should be focusing more on that! School are a direct reflection of society therefore we need to refocus our attention on further connecting schools and homelife. Teachers are not the sole people responsible for that childs test scores. . . their parents are too!

How about ejecting the illegal aliens, and their kids too. That would free up a lot of money, and solve a lot of ESL problems. Make English the national language, and prosecute breaking into our country the same way you would prosecute breaking into a house. The illegals have broken into our home, used our services, and our own, legal kids are paying the price. Send them back home. Tell them to clean up their own house, not rob ours!

De-fund our failing public schools now!

The biggest stakeholders in students educational career are the students. Where is the accountability for the students? I speak from the point of view of a teacher. I have been teaching high school English for several years now. I bring the materials and motivation to the classroom, yet many students show up unprepared. I am one of those teachers who are always advancing because I want to better, more effective. I have earned a Masters degree in Secondary Education, become a Reading teacher, I completed 360 hours to be ESOL endorsed and I am one year into a doctorates program with a major in curriculum and instruction. I said all of this to emphasize that I am a learner as well as a teacher. Who encouraged this drive that I have? My parents, some teachers and family members. But the biggest stakeholder is me, the learner. Sucess in our students is a compilation of the whole community. Please do not ask teachers to beat a “dead horse” when students are not read to at home and when simply values are not instilled in them. The 21st century learner was raised on television and gadgets. Where are the parents? Where is the involvement? Where is the support for the students and the teachers? I cannot begin to tell you, America, of the unprecedent issues that teachers are faced with. It has become a battlefield. For teachers like me… I came into teaching for the love and to make a difference…but learning is a shared responsibility, and students need to be accountable. Who are we fooling? What are other countries doing, whose students are thriving beyond us and leading the way in technology skills, math, reading and writing? These countries have students who are accountable, disciplined and respectful.

I have not read all of the comments posted so far, but I did read the majority of them. I saw a lot of writing about parent accountability and student accountability. When discussing merit pay, rather than looking at student success and achievement or standardized test scores, maybe we should look solely at what is in the educator’s control – professional development. In business and many industries, extra pay is warranted when completing real and results-driven development. As an example, just to keep annual licensing, lawyers and accountants (both professions with graduate degrees, generally speaking) must complete professional development.

It is a shame so many educators have little to no professional development. This should not just be a video seminar, or classroom training, but development which would help the school out in some way – improving curriculum, developing real lesson plans that will be used in the classroom, or social/psychological training.

Also, I have not seen it mentioned that in some districts, teachers are no longer evaluated on a subjective scale. There are rubrics and standards that can and SHOULD be used for grading and evaluation of teachers.

There are ways to provide bonuses and extra pay where the onus is on the teacher to improve themselves and their classroom presence and content.