Who must one know — as does Lederer — to get one’s career bummed on “The Point”?

Or is it simply than one must simply have a minimum amount of financial assets — the measure of success for the financially privileged who operate and squat on NPR/WBUR — as was once required in order to have the right to run for and hold public office, and to vote?

Who does Lederer know that got her onto “The Point” unlike the better poets who are not well-connected by money with the monied, the “better”?

I think I met Katy Lederer briefly when I took over her job as an assistant to a psychiatrist in New York City — before her hedge fund days. So, my guess is that she started as a poet/writer/artist and then decided she didn’t want to starve. I have to admit, I am very envious and admiring of any artist who can figure out how not to starve.

This is a memorable passage about money from Galbraith’s book “The Age of Uncertainty”:

“Money has been an everyday fact of life for at least 2500 years. Herodotus, more or less as an afterthought and with a nice juxtaposition of concepts, tells of the invention of coined money in Asia Minor:

‘All of the young women of Lydia prostitute themselves, by which they procure their marriage portion … The manners and customs of the Lydians do not essentially vary from those of Greece, except in this prostitution of young women. They are the first people on record who coined gold and silver into money, and traded in retail.’ [Herodotus, Book I]

It seems certain that there were much earlier experiences with coinage in the Indus Valley and China of which Herodotus was unaware.”

Can Katy comment on whether she sees any parallel between her experiences and her understanding of Wallace Stevens?

I apologize that this comment is something of a poetry “slam,” but I’m struck by the inarticulateness of this poet. The “ums,” “sort ofs,” and “likes,” combined with her inability to make a clear point is so pronounced that I turned off the radio. Pushkin’s great poem, “The Poet and the Bookseller” bemoans the banality of the market compared to the timelessness and beauty of poetry. But Ms. Lederer seems like someone who has simply figured out how to market banal poetry.

Perhaps hedge funds need more poets, in particular those who are familiar with the ancient Greeks for whom a constant theme was hubris.

As a lowly mechanical engineer I am always aware that the results of my calculations, no matter how rigorous, are estimates and that there is always the statistical possibility for a part or system to fail.

Jack Beatty’s comment re: having a nurse on the board of an investment firm is terrific. My elderly aunt (90 years old) meticulously managed her account for over 25 years with a major brokerage firm. Her long-term broker retired and within 2 years her sizable account had been wiped out from financial fraud.

The brokerage firm stood by and let this happen knowing that the activity (multiple cash withdrawals using ATM card) did not fit her activity profile at all. Our seniors (and the rest of us) could benefit from systems that incorporate effectively dealing with these situations.

While on the subject of ‘financial poets’: don’t forget that T.S. Eliot worked for Lloyd’s bank. Ezra Pound felt the bank work subtracted from Elliot’s artistic efforts. He campaigned for donations, i think, within the arts community to liberate Mr. Elliot from the bank and so free his creative energy. Hemingway (sarcastically of course) commented upon this in print, though i forget which book.

ab

Green Death

when leaves begin to fall—
or as the nuns said,

“souls falling into hell
like leaves stripped

from trees and scattered
floating downward

fluttering from God’s grasp”
like punched tickets—

or confetti shimmering
after an election’s won

I think poetry is a targeted response to a world gone mad in terms of money, however Katy came to it. I wonder if the Iowa Writers Workshop thought of poetry as an arc over, as seeds planted, encapsulating a kind of Gestalt whose time is not now. Something like the Timon of Athens quote blooming now. I think poetry should be targeted towards children, planted, held, waiting to unfold.

In terms of the hedge fund mindset, I saw the Writing on the Wall when TIAA-CREF offered up Socially Responsible fund options. I was shocked that retirement funds might support NON socially responsible funds. I decided immediately to invest without any regrets (for the time being) in my private business and my health. I did switch one retirement fund (with NML) to a “socially responsible” fund, but fearing that that fund too would be infected with the mindset whose comeuppance we are now seeing. I’m waiting to create a serious nest egg until the banks to act more like governments, with the common good in mind, utilities for distributing resources. Actually taxes are supposed to do that as well.

And I in a way I have no time for anything but telegraphic writing, call it what you will.

How do we get past “systemic” problems? If money is not the problem, and people are “rational” actors with no personal responsibility, then how can anything be improved? Systemic problems, envisioning people as cogs with no attachment or power is scary. Money has no inherent worth or meaning- reminds me of “guns don’t kill people, people kill people,” except in this case, we would say people don’t kill people either.
If money has no inherent worth, and is merely a piece of paper handed over in exchange for food, why do people stockpile billions? I think money, in a lot of ways, acts as a barrier between people and food.

did anyone catch the poem ‘business’ … i would like to hear it again or read it. please transcribe or forward link. my radio cut out and i am on the road.

t

Perhap hedge funds need more poets, in particular those who are familiar with the ancient Greeks for whom a constant theme was hubris.

As a lowly mechanical engineer I am always aware that the results of my calculations, no matter how rigorous, are estimates and that there is always the statistical possibility for a part or system to fail.

The hedge fund geeks essentially play video games where acquiring coinage is their means of survival. And like the fantasy assets of Enron that pumped up its value in the real world the financial products of the investment banks were, as we now know, just as fictitious. In both cases these metaphysical assets made real money for some individuals at the cost of bankrupting the real world system.

Getting down to basics a society is composed of a self-interest/collective-interest dynamic and a social system needs to provide a synergy for that dynamic to operate in. Money is pivotal in that dynamic.

With regard to self-interest money is survival. Acquiring money is how you survive in a society. The need for money plugs into our survival instinct. Self-preservation is a powerful instinct and it’s very difficult to quantify. Don’t we always feel the need to make more money?

In pursuing our self-interest in survival we can loose sight of the collective-interest, which when systems collapse we realize, or are reminded, that our self-interest is also wrapped up in a collective-interest.

As it is now self-interest, or capitalism, and collective-interest, or socialism, are seen as two opposing elements. We need a social system that promotes them symbiotically as the dynamic that they comprise.

i must say that i found the interview with the hedge fund poet to be highly offensive. mostly because she seemed totally oblivious to the morally outrageous behavior of these paper shuffling whom she “recruited.” someone once said something very true and relevant to this issue: everyone likes nice things. what you will do to get them is what determines whether you have any Values, other than the love of nice things, that is. the hedge fund poet may celebrate the excitement and energy of the bonfire of the vanities. but she does so without any perception of how morally vacuous such behavior is when it is the hard-earned savings of good honest folks that these manipulators put at risk. surely in the future you can find more deserving literary talents to feature, and steer clear of the no-talent parasites who want to have their cake and eat it too.

Unlike Jon and others, I loved this show. What’s the difference between a journalist covering the financial meltdown or a poet? Why is a journalist aloud to comment but not a poet? The tip off was Katy talking about doing hedge fund anthropology (or sociology). I didn’t feel like Katy, Tom, or Jack were taking for granted the fact that the economy is in the tank, and that fact ought not stop discussions like this one.

I didn’t expect to like this show but I did, well done Tom.

It’s a little like a fish riding a bicycle, isn’t it? Or, to borrow an expression, lipstick on a pig. Poets don’t have to be poor and unemployed; poets can even have money. But above all else, poets DO have to be honest. This English major didn’t just take notes, I’ll wager. She did whatever she was told and now she’s found a gimmick, which is what publishing anything is all about these days. She’s a creature of her times. Believe me, this is not one for the ages. Flavor of the week, at best.

Thank god for Jack re this interview, He was civil and a gentleman, (more so than I could have been, I fear). Yet he was able to convey, however gently, that he shares my view ( though his quotes by Shakespeare and Marx as well as his own cogent remarks)the hollowness, and yes evil, that the love of money spawns. (see also T.S. Eliot’s “The Wasteland” and “the Hollow men”). Katy blithley quotes Kant, but fails to cite his Categorical Imperative, which would imply that anyone with gobs of money would willingly (do I dare say it?)–(re)distribute that wealth. As far as viewing the adrenalin laden, feeding frenzy atmosphere of the hedge fund world as an anthropological exercise, I would have more respect for the writer had she expressed dismay and outrage and compassion for those who suffer (all of us?) in a world whose values are upside down.

“…Ezra Pound felt the bank work subtracted from Elliot’s artistic efforts. He campaigned for donations, i think, within the arts community to liberate Mr. Elliot from the bank and so free his creative energy….” ashley burnham

And Ashley who would have liberated Pound from his hatred of Jews and his love affair with the Fascists, as well as his treason broadcasts from Nazi occupied Europe.

Poets don’t always see the light. Sometimes they dwell in darkness.

Sorry didn’t realize there already was a Chris on the board.

I’ll repost my comment:

“…Ezra Pound felt the bank work subtracted from Elliot’s artistic efforts. He campaigned for donations, i think, within the arts community to liberate Mr. Elliot from the bank and so free his creative energy….” ashley burnham

And Ashley who would have liberated Pound from his hatred of Jews and his love affair with the Fascists, as well as his treason broadcasts from Nazi occupied Europe.

Poets don’t always see the light. Sometimes they dwell in darkness.

There is sufficient negative portrayal of the financial industry by the public (e.g. jon frank’s comment) that I feel I should write a few words to give perspective. To categorically label all bankers, traders, and fund managers as morally corrupt is an overly simplistic view. While there are those in the finance sector who profit by market manipulation, most market participants are law-abiding. There also seems to be a negative perception on the concept of speculation. Speculators actually enhance market efficiency by acting opposite to mispricing. Without speculators, the 401K portfolio can be grossly overvalued when you buy in, or grossly undervalued when you need to sell. While working entirely out of self-interests, speculators serve a role to stabilize markets (even in this climate).

Yes! Richard hits the spot. We’ve been shut-up for too long–we need to get our feet wet, be “aloud”!

I don’t know if anyone’s still reading down here — but I just thought I’d pop in and point out that there are other, less ambivalent poets, writing other, less ambivalent poems about the intersections of money, life and art. Check out http://www.thepeterprinciple.org.

A bit of context: It’s my site and my work. And I lived in NYC for the last eight years, much like this poet — though decidedly on the other end of the spectrum. And with a decidedly different reaction.

When Katy was confronted by the fact that Hedge Funds have contributed to reducing the life-savings of of hard-working and poorly paid people like nurses, she expressed no remorse. She took no reponsibiltiy for her own actions.

Instead she blamed the financial crisis, to which she has contributed, on government policy and on others. Why does On Point give recognition and publicity to people like this and not to hard-working, honest people who take responsibiltiy for their own actions?

I am another arts refugee who found my way to Investment Banking.

Like your guest tonight, I liked Investment Banking. At that time that business was full of interesting, intelligent people.

I was there, when much of these obtuse instruments that are now household words were launched in a big way into the market place.

I was a technologist who worked the Fixed Income trading floor tech. support gig in the late 90s. I supported Blythe Masters and Bill Demchak, two people who had a huge influence on explosive growth of structured debt, credit derivatives, credit default swaps, etc. More about them here in this Portfolio piece by Jessie Eisinger:http://www.portfolio.com/views/columns/wall-street/2008/10/15/Credit-Derivatives-Role-in-Crash

Katy Lederer. She’s a nice gal but lacks credibility because she communicates like a high school student.

The nurse that Beatty tried so hard to wax poetic about is probasbly overdrawn on his credit cards and had borrowed to the max against his once overvalued house.

Two of the comments above resonate especially well with me: Katy is no doubt well educated, but her verbal style would fit better in high school hallways. She allows her voice to descend into an unnatural register, in the manner of schoolgirls, and does this so strongly that I had to turn off the radio and skip the rest of her interview.

After reading the posted comments I am glad to see that I am not alone in my estimate of the hedge poet. Not only was she verbally inarticulate on the show her poetry just so-so.

Did not anyone on your show wonder whether this poet and her connection to a hedge fund (which your host hyped endlessly in a high-pitched voice)…did not anyone think that it might be a VERY INSENSITIVE program at this time?

I am left wondering who did this poet know that she was selected for your program. How ’bout showcasing a real working man’s poet such as Martin Espada…a person with a brain who is articulate and a great poet.

It’s funny, I feel like many of the folks who have commented must have been listening to a different program than the one I heard. It was a brilliant choice to bring someone like Katy on the show, someone who had an “ambivalent”, nuanced view of money, someone who would spur a debate with those who see money as irrevocably tied to greed. Her ideas and the images she used to convey them, perhaps too whimsical for some, struck me as as vivid distillations of a particular place and time. This is exactly what I look for in Poetry. Whether we’re laying the blame on hedge funds and the people who work in them for this mess, I reject the idea that it’s not a place with a story worth telling. Jack Beatty and a variety of angry callers (rightfully) raised the question “what the hell do you say to the man who has lost his pension?” This concrete socialism provided a perfect counterpoint to Lederer’s fanciful image-making. What a show!

I found Katy Lederer’s writing and reading sooooooooooooooo affected. I could not bear listening to Tom going on and on about how exciting it was to have a real live poet on on this topic. Tom, I think you may be naive in matters of art but perhaps your producers choose your guests.

I find the writing from your listeners so much more cogent than your guest whose romantic poestic style does not work with the subject matter. For example, in painting the style brash styles of Pop Art gave us a visual jolt as it dealt with brash contemporary images.Al was synchronized. I agree with the person who made the comment below.

Two of the comments above resonate especially well with me: Katy is no doubt well educated, but her verbal style would fit better in high school hallways. She allows her voice to descend into an unnatural register, in the manner of schoolgirls, and does this so strongly that I had to turn off the radio and skip the rest of her interview.

I agree with Carol Anderheggen, on Dec. 5th 2008 at 12:46 EST. I think Ethelyn Honig, on Dec. 6th 2008 at 5:51 EST, is spot on ! I tuned in to the show for about 60 seconds and was enraged at Tom’s gushing attitude toward his guest, and then tuned it off.

These evolutionary-algorithms, “mathematics”, that fueled these financial instruments, like derivatives pass for education at Boston area institions like Harvard and MIT. BLAA !

By the way Tom, I heard your Harvard intern on another of your shows, something about on-line social groups. He is unimpressive.